Thatwackyned
First Post
I would appreciate if someone could help me build a TWF 2 Hand X-Bows Rogue. Any WotC book is good. Thank you.
Build me an Awsome Duo Hand X-Bow Rogue plz
I will help some, but need some info first. How are you determining stats? Is this a point buy?
Do you just want 1st level?
Can you take a flaw from Unearthed Arcana to gain an extra feat? Can you take two flaws?
I have a perfect feat in mind... can it be out of a different book than one from Wizards? How about from Paizo (that's where the feat is)?
Aluvial
Do you just want 1st level?
Can you take a flaw from Unearthed Arcana to gain an extra feat? Can you take two flaws?
I have a perfect feat in mind... can it be out of a different book than one from Wizards? How about from Paizo (that's where the feat is)?
Aluvial
Thatwackyned
First Post
I'm sorry, i should have specified.
Just WotC books. 2 Flaws are allowed. And if you can build it to level 9 that would be awsome. Standard points buy is the way to go. I think i got everything.
Just WotC books. 2 Flaws are allowed. And if you can build it to level 9 that would be awsome. Standard points buy is the way to go. I think i got everything.
Basically you are looking at feats here. The more you have, the better off you are. Also, bonus feats would help.
Are you sure you want to be a rogue? I assume yes, but then again, you may have just as easily said, I want to be an "Awesome Duo Hand X-Bow Dude."
Let me know. Classes in Ranger would help, as would Fighter.
Do you need a specific skill, like Open Locks, or Search (traps)? Disable Device? You might pick those up in non-core classes like the Scout.
Let me know...
Aluvial
Are you sure you want to be a rogue? I assume yes, but then again, you may have just as easily said, I want to be an "Awesome Duo Hand X-Bow Dude."
Let me know. Classes in Ranger would help, as would Fighter.
Do you need a specific skill, like Open Locks, or Search (traps)? Disable Device? You might pick those up in non-core classes like the Scout.
Let me know...
Aluvial
Thatwackyned
First Post
Well I would like to be a rogue to get the trap-finding. But if can ninja that from somewhere else please be free.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
The problem with dual crossbows is that even with Rapid Reload, it takes both hands to reload one hand crossbow. If your DM allows you to "quickly" load one while the other rests between your arm and chest, and then repeat on the other, go for it, but saying you can do that twice and between each attack as a free action is a bit of a stretch.
Another problem is that hand crossbow is a crappy, crappy weapon. As far as dual-shooting goes, I see little reason to waste a feat on it for worse damage and range as opposed to just using two light crossbows and calling them hand crossbows. The difference is the -2 penalty you take on light crossbows for one-handed, but that's partly offset by reinvesting the EWP feat you would have spent on Weapon Focus, so you're basically trading 50 ft of range increment, TWO dice sizes of damage, and the fact that you're far more likely to find new light xbows than hand xbows, potentially saving you money, all for +1 to hit. Weapon Focus can also open up other possibilities, such as Ranged Weapon Mastery from PH2. From The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org, the relevant text for each:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Whichever route you go, you should think of how the limitations on reloading will affect you in combat before building the character.
Another problem is that hand crossbow is a crappy, crappy weapon. As far as dual-shooting goes, I see little reason to waste a feat on it for worse damage and range as opposed to just using two light crossbows and calling them hand crossbows. The difference is the -2 penalty you take on light crossbows for one-handed, but that's partly offset by reinvesting the EWP feat you would have spent on Weapon Focus, so you're basically trading 50 ft of range increment, TWO dice sizes of damage, and the fact that you're far more likely to find new light xbows than hand xbows, potentially saving you money, all for +1 to hit. Weapon Focus can also open up other possibilities, such as Ranged Weapon Mastery from PH2. From The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org, the relevant text for each:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Whichever route you go, you should think of how the limitations on reloading will affect you in combat before building the character.
Oh, I totally agree with the above... hand x-bows are rough. And won't exactly qualify for "awesome."
However, what if you could free-action load a heavy x-bow, and still get multiple attacks... that's the part ranger build that I would have you take. As for trap-finding, not a problem, we can back-door that in...
Aluvial
However, what if you could free-action load a heavy x-bow, and still get multiple attacks... that's the part ranger build that I would have you take. As for trap-finding, not a problem, we can back-door that in...
Aluvial
Thatwackyned
First Post
Well i talked to my DM and he says that with Rapid Reload, he will allow me to "Laura Croft" the reload and free action as many as i want. When has DnD been about Physics?
But what you guys are saying is that with hand x-bows, i'm limiting my options. Eh, i'm ok with that. But the challenge still stands to build an Awsome char with Duo hand x-bows and trap finding.
I'm sure the dmg output will be far below the norm, but the sneak attack should boost that.
Also, my DM said any Prestige Class from a WotC book is a go.
But what you guys are saying is that with hand x-bows, i'm limiting my options. Eh, i'm ok with that. But the challenge still stands to build an Awsome char with Duo hand x-bows and trap finding.
I'm sure the dmg output will be far below the norm, but the sneak attack should boost that.
Also, my DM said any Prestige Class from a WotC book is a go.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
I think Exotic Weapon Master 1 can land you a weapon trick to not provoke when shooting, that may be useful. It's a shame you don't use throwing weapons, Master Thrower is awesome for Rogue ranged attackers.
Beyond those, not much I can think of... Assassin is decent for any Rogue, C.Adv has two Nightsong guild classes (enforcer and infiltrator) that are occasionally useful. Deepwood Sniper is from a 3.0 supplement, Masters of the Wild, but is easily adapted to 3.5 if allowed. It's a great PrC for long ranged fighting, not sure how much it'd help you, though. Ditto for Cragtop Archer from Races of Stone.
Feats you might want (aside from the obvious choices) are:
PH2:
Crossbow Sniper
Deadeye Shot (has lots of requirements, but basically guarantees you one SA/round)
Ranged Weapon Mastery (need Weapon Specialization, and hence 4 Fighter levels)
Telling Blow (take if you make the xbow Keen; gives you SA on a crit)
Dragon Compendium v.1:
Concealed Ambush (only -10 to hide after sniping instead of -20)
Races of the Wild:
Woodland Sniper (GREAT tactical feat, need BAB +6)
Complete Adventurer:
EDIT: Melee only, my mistake. Still useful if you plan to occasionally fight hand to hand...
All the above are conveniently listed here: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf
In Complete Scoundrel, there's a feat called Savvy Rogue to improve Rogue special abilities, a worthwhile feat for anyone of the class.
Finally, if you can use a feat from Song and Silence (3.0), there's an amazing feat called Quicker than the Eye. It's like Deadeye Shot, but lots less requirements, and instead of having to wait for your readied attack to come up, you just do a simple move action Bluff (or Sleight of Hand, I forget) vs. Spot to make the foe flatfooted, giving you a standard action left to SA him. It 's hard after round 1 for ranged Rogues to get SA, remember (if you want advice on other ways to get it, I can help you, most involve the Use Magic Device skill or a friendly caster).
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Suggestion
Human Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 4
2 flaws
Feats:
1 Rogue 1 Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Fighter 1 Crossbow Sniper (PHBII)*
3 Ranger 1 Track*, Quick Draw
4 Ranger 2 Two-Weapon Fighting*
5 Rogue 2
6 Rogue 3 Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) (ToB)
7 Fighter 2 Improved Two-Weapon fighting*
8 Fighter 3
9 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization*, Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHBII)
The ranger levels are mainly for the extra feat. Fighter also works. You need a full BAB class for Ranged Weapon Mastery at level 9 though (BAB 8).
Martial Study provides you with a once/battle full attack with sneak attack damage. More importantly, it lets you qualify for Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) later.
Quick Draw is mainly for flavor, but can be useful if you win initiative. Can be replaced with Rapid Reload if you don't want Quick Loading (MIC) crossbows. Can be dropped if you don't want to be human.
I'd get a level of Exotic Weapon Master (CWar) next for the Close-Quarters Ranged Combat ability (no AoO), followed by two levels of ranger with the Champion of the Wild variant (CCha, bonus feats instead of spells) ) for Greater Two-Weapon fighting at level 12. Pick Martial Stance as the regular level 12 feat. Then you can get another two levels of rogue and fill up your key rogue skills. Improved Initiative at level 15 maybe?
Ability scores: You need a high Dex, obviously. Keep Con high as well. You want to be close to the enemy for the full effect, and you will get hit from time to time.
Items you may want to buy/start with in addition to the basics:
A pair of Quick Loading (MIC, 8400x2) hand crossbows.
Goggles of Foefinding (MIC, 2500) - lets you fire away without penalty while standing behind the tank.
Bracers of the Hunter (SecXen, 8500). Expensive at this level, but very nice item for a sneak attacker.
Ring of Anticipation (DrowUnd, 6000). Also pricey, but very useful for getting that first round devastating full attack against a flat-footed foe.
Human Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 4
2 flaws
Feats:
1 Rogue 1 Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Fighter 1 Crossbow Sniper (PHBII)*
3 Ranger 1 Track*, Quick Draw
4 Ranger 2 Two-Weapon Fighting*
5 Rogue 2
6 Rogue 3 Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) (ToB)
7 Fighter 2 Improved Two-Weapon fighting*
8 Fighter 3
9 Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization*, Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHBII)
The ranger levels are mainly for the extra feat. Fighter also works. You need a full BAB class for Ranged Weapon Mastery at level 9 though (BAB 8).
Martial Study provides you with a once/battle full attack with sneak attack damage. More importantly, it lets you qualify for Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) later.
Quick Draw is mainly for flavor, but can be useful if you win initiative. Can be replaced with Rapid Reload if you don't want Quick Loading (MIC) crossbows. Can be dropped if you don't want to be human.
I'd get a level of Exotic Weapon Master (CWar) next for the Close-Quarters Ranged Combat ability (no AoO), followed by two levels of ranger with the Champion of the Wild variant (CCha, bonus feats instead of spells) ) for Greater Two-Weapon fighting at level 12. Pick Martial Stance as the regular level 12 feat. Then you can get another two levels of rogue and fill up your key rogue skills. Improved Initiative at level 15 maybe?
Ability scores: You need a high Dex, obviously. Keep Con high as well. You want to be close to the enemy for the full effect, and you will get hit from time to time.
Items you may want to buy/start with in addition to the basics:
A pair of Quick Loading (MIC, 8400x2) hand crossbows.
Goggles of Foefinding (MIC, 2500) - lets you fire away without penalty while standing behind the tank.
Bracers of the Hunter (SecXen, 8500). Expensive at this level, but very nice item for a sneak attacker.
Ring of Anticipation (DrowUnd, 6000). Also pricey, but very useful for getting that first round devastating full attack against a flat-footed foe.
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