D&D 5E Building a better Rogue

[nswanson27]

It's not a fix. It's RAW.
I just translated it into conversational English.

I believe RAW you need to have both, not one or the other.

 

[merwins]

I believe RAW you need to have both, not one or the other.

You made me go look. It's even worse than I thought.

Thief gets Sneak Attack when they have advantage.
They get advantage in all the standard ways, whatever those are.
Barring complications, they get advantage when an ally is adjacent to their target

The Assassin gets all that plus they get advantage in the first round of combat against all opponents with a lower initiative.

Finally, the Assassin does critical damage when they hit a creature that is surprised (Assassinate).
At 17th level, they can outright kill a target with this ability (Death Strike) if the target fails a Con save.

Because Alert eliminates surprise, it essentially makes you immune to both the Assassin's defining abilities. Yick.

 

[Guest 6801328]

You made me go look. It's even worse than I thought.

Thief gets Sneak Attack when they have advantage.
They get advantage in all the standard ways, whatever those are.
Barring complications, they get advantage when an ally is adjacent to their target

Incorrect. If an ally is adjacent to their target they get to use Sneak Attack even if they don't have Advantage, but it doesn't give them Advantage.

At 17th level, they can outright kill a target with this ability (Death Strike) if the target fails a Con save.

Yet another reason it's nice to have a Divination Wizard in the party.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Thief gets Sneak Attack when they have advantage.
They get advantage in all the standard ways, whatever those are.
Barring complications, they get advantage when an ally is adjacent to their target

Not quite. They get Sneak Attack when they have advantage. Barring complications, they also get Sneak Attack when an ally is adjacent to their target, even if they don't otherwise have advantage. Having the ally there doesn't generally grant advantage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Not much to change about the Rogue, it's one of the most well designed classes in 5e all around.

The one thing I would definitely change, however, is allowing Sneak Attack with all light weapons (in addition to finesse and ranged). That would allow Sneak Attacks with clubs, light hammers and handaxes. Going up behind someone and zonking them in the head with a club unawares, in particular, is a very iconic Sneak Attack. And it'd allow for STR-based thuggish Rogues right out of the box, which wouldn't be any more effective mechanics-wise than existing Rogue builds, anyway, but at least it'd actually give us a working mechanical expression of that common Rogue concept.

I actually think you didn't go far enough here. A thug rogue also needs medium armor to avoid having the lowest AC in the game (which is very bad for a melee character), so give rogues that as well. It doesn't help dex rogues at all, and doesn't increase the highest possible AC a rogue can get, but it does allow rogues that prioritize strength over dex, and allow some more freedom to the DM when assigning loot.

 

[guachi]

I think such a rogue (strength based) would be fun and I'm somewhat surprised we haven't seen one in a UA article yet.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I think such a rogue (strength based) would be fun and I'm somewhat surprised we haven't seen one in a UA article yet.

The problem is that it doesn't make sense. You can't swing with strength in order to hit between armor plates; you must finesse it in order for that ability to be what it is.

If you want to play a strength-based rogue-type character, make a fighter with the criminal background.

 

[Leatherhead]

The problem is that it doesn't make sense. You can't swing with strength in order to hit between armor plates; you must finesse it in order for that ability to be what it is.

If you want to play a strength-based rogue-type character, make a fighter with the criminal background.

But that isn't how Sneak Attack works in 5e. In 5e, it's about hitting a distracted character. Cold-cocking someone totally fits that description.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But that isn't how Sneak Attack works in 5e. In 5e, it's about hitting a distracted character. Cold-cocking someone totally fits that description.

If that was the case, then it would make sense that you could use a bludgeon. Since you can't, then that must not be the case.

The scenario that the rules are trying to describe is that the distraction is what allows you to strike at the weak spot. If the enemy wasn't distracted, then you wouldn't get a shot at their weak spot, because their attention would be focused entirely on you.

 

[SmokeyCriminal]

Things I would consider tweaking for the Rogue would be:

Fast Hands: Someone said Advantage for Sleight of Hand which could be nice. But I think something like 'Add your Dex to the DC of objects' could be fun. So that ball berrings, traps, and caltrops stay somewhat viable past 3rd level.

Second-Story Work: Should add 'Use Dex for Climbing.' It's sad when you see;

Thief: "Sweet climbing doesn't cost me extra movement now. I want to climb that 30 foot wall and get to the very top in one round"

DM: "Ok roll a Str. Athletics check for it"

Thief: "...A what, what?"

Infiltration Expertise: add either Advantage on Persuasion and/or Deception, or let them get Expertise on either Persuasion or Deception. It has the word Expertise in the name.

Imposter: I think cut the time to one hour or even half and hour for speech and mannerism, and one hour for writting. That way when your invited to the meeting or dinner you can excuse yourself in the middle of it and throw on your disguise, do your spy thing, and get back before it ends.

Blindsense: This one needs to negate the disadvantage of the invisibility status. Otherwise all this is good for is for you to let everyone else know which square the invisible thing is at so they can attack it. No hope of ever getting sneak attack feels terrible especially when your the only one that knows where the creature is.