D&D 5E Building a better Rogue

CapnZapp

Legend
OK, got it. Although you still have options.

If the rogue is not next to a creature that meets the criteria for a sneak attack, all the BM has to do is make sure he's next to the target. Then the rogue can use a ranged weapon. Either a bow (since it just says "weapon attack"), if that's where he is (since the rogue is always better that way), or he can throw a dagger.

So even with the BM maneuver, the rogue is better off with a bow...
Sadly yes. With range, it becomes much easier to find a target for which sneak attack applies.

(And nothing wrong with that. It's just a feature that has considerable intrinsic value. I believe WotC should have taken that value into consideration when they designed the options for melee and ranged Rogue builds.

Or, to be honest, I fear they just forgot to include it in any of their design docs)
 

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If we really want to improve dagger attacks...
Look again at Conan 2. Take a good look at the thief. When he backstabs, he does it with dual daggers...
Which could lead to.

Dual BackStab.
You must weild a dagger in both hands. You must be behind your target and your target must have a noticable back (sorry, no ooze). You can use your attack action to backstab a target with both daggers simultenaously. If the attack succeed. You deal double normal dagger damage and the number of dice your sneak attack damage deal is multiplied by 1.5 (round down fractions). This additional damage can benefit from a critical hit. This means that a rogue with a sneak attack of 4d6 would now deal 6d6 on a sneak attack from behind. You can not use a bonus action to make an off hand attack.

A bowman would not get that benefit ever nor would a dual weilding rogue with short sword and rapier. The downside is that if that attack misses, you do not get a second attack with your bonus action. This has the advantage of not removing anything from ranged attacker and melee rogues can make either choice. The swashbuckler loses nothing and his play style stays intact. This could lead to a 12th level rogue doing a main backstab at 9d6 if he is in melee. If a battle master is near, he could still use his reaction to sneak attack and do an additional 6d6. With a critical, that feat becomes quite dangerous. (18d6 on a critical...)

To make thing scarier why not an other feat.
Improved critical.
Chose a weapon, your critical range with that weapon is increase by one.
Each time you choose this feat, you must take a different weapon.


Daggers would now crit on a 18-20. Not a bad thing. The fact that the feat applies only to one weapon and not all weapons that you know restricts the usefulness of the feat. Our bowmen, swordmen and all the other character types could benefit from this feat. Crits are rare enough. But these feat, with the improve crit range of dagger would now make melee rogues quite appealing.

What do you think?
 
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I think RAW it doesn't matter which initiative count the Battle Master is. A reaction is a reaction, and technically on somebody else's turn, regardless of whether you turn is on the same initiative count.

The only problem is that if the BM is before the rogues, they might not be in proper position to do their sneak attack with advantage. It is not mandatory to be in flanking position to do some sneak attacks, but doing them with advantage ensure that these attacks have a good chance to hit.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
If we really want to improve dagger attacks...
Look again at Conan 2. Take a good look at the thief. When he backstabs, he does it with dual daggers...
Which could lead to.

Dual BackStab.
You must weild a dagger in both hands. You must be behind your target and your target must have a noticable back (sorry, no ooze). You can use your attack action to backstab a target with both daggers simultenaously. If the attack succeed. You deal double normal dagger damage and the number of dice your sneak attack damage deal is multiplied by 1.5 (round down fractions). This additional damage can benefit from a critical hit. This means that a rogue with a sneak attack of 4d6 would now deal 6d6 on a sneak attack from behind. You can not use a bonus action to make an off hand attack.

A bowman would not get that benefit ever nor would a dual weilding rogue with short sword and rapier. The downside is that if that attack misses, you do not get a second attack with your bonus action. This has the advantage of not removing anything from ranged attacker and melee rogues can make either choice. The swashbuckler loses nothing and his play style stays intact. This could lead to a 12th level rogue doing a main backstab at 9d6 if he is in melee. If a battle master is near, he could still use his reaction to sneak attack and do an additional 6d6. With a critical, that feat becomes quite dangerous. (18d6 on a critical...)

To make thing scarier why not an other feat.
Improved critical.
Chose a weapon, your critical range with that weapon is increase by one.
Each time you choose this feat, you must take a different weapon.


Daggers would now crit on a 18-20. Not a bad thing. The fact that the feat applies only to one weapon and not all weapons that you know restricts the usefulness of the feat. Our bowmen, swordmen and all the other character types could benefit from this feat. Crits are rare enough. But these feat, with the improve crit range of dagger would now make melee rogues quite appealing.

What do you think?

I don't think it will break the game.

I'm also not a fan of things that are so clearly "better" in the sense that now every thief will be wielding two daggers. Just like [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] doesn't like how ranged weapons are too powerful. There isn't a reason not to do it.

Presumably a dual wielding rogue is making the decision to forgo their maneuverability to make a second attack instead. If not, then they aren't counting on the extra attack opportunities, nor the extra damage opportunity.

In this case, you've eliminated the second attack roll (so they don't gain the benefit of a second chance), but you've increased the damage considerably on a hit and they can still take advantage on their maneuverability.

If it just did the damage of the dagger, but didn't impact the sneak attack damage, then I'd have no issue at all. Why? Because the two daggers damage wise isn't really any different than a rapier. It's a style choice, rather than a clear bump in power.

My rule-sense is tuned around real life and the narrative. For example, if stabbing with two daggers is inherently better, than why wasn't it a thing in real life. Either murderers, or in medieval combat. Now suddenly there's a world of thieves that always attack with two daggers. Now it would be cool if that was either a specific murderer, or a thieves' (or assassins') guild's specific calling card. In that case, I don't have an issue with forgoing the second attack roll and still leaving bonus actions open for something else.

I don't have any issue with your feat. Although in my campaign, light finesse piercing weapons have a critical threat range of 19. Perhaps that's a bit of a help to the melee rogue too?

Your feat would stack with this, of course, but might be less necessary. Critical hits in my campaign work differently too. You need to score 5 higher than needed to hit in addition to the natural 20, although if you score 10 more, than any hit is a critical.
 

jgsugden

Legend
I've sat at a lot of game tables and seen a lot of 5E rogues. Once you hit the mid levels, they consistently hit the same problem - they start to watch the other classes replace their unique skills with magic (or background abilities duplicated many of them all along) and they start to see their special powerful sneak attack fall off in damage so much that the fighter outclasses them. There are ways to get around it, but it requires a lot of skill and optimization. Although I have not played a rogue, I have a design for one that can compete with the fighter classes for damage when things go right, but it is hard to pull off.

Lvl 1: Use 2 short swords to get 2 chances at sneak attack
Lvl 3: Assassin
Lvl 4: Sentinel (used to get 2nd sneak attack when the enemy attacks someone else - use stealth/trickery/magic to avoid being attacked)
Lvl 8: Magic Initiate: Warlock (Hex, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion)
Lvl 10: Dex +2
Lvl 12: Dex +2
Lvl 16: Dual Wielder (Rapiers)
Lvl 19: Mage Slayer
 

jgsugden

Legend
Generally you would have a point, except Commander's Strike happens on the warlord BM's turn.

...

What you want is for the Rogue to position herself, and then the BM to command a strike before the critters have time to move around and generally make the Rogue's positioning difficult...
One note: If you use a dagger in the offhand, a BM can allow you to take that extra attack as a ranged attack. That increases the chances of the CS being available if your BM is going right before the rogue. They can move up to the enemy and then CS to make sure you can get the sneak.
 

I don't think it will break the game.

1) I'm also not a fan of things that are so clearly "better" in the sense that now every thief will be wielding two daggers. Just like [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] doesn't like how ranged weapons are too powerful. There isn't a reason not to do it.

Presumably a dual wielding rogue is making the decision to forgo their maneuverability to make a second attack instead. If not, then they aren't counting on the extra attack opportunities, nor the extra damage opportunity.

In this case, you've eliminated the second attack roll (so they don't gain the benefit of a second chance), but you've increased the damage considerably on a hit and they can still take advantage on their maneuverability.

If it just did the damage of the dagger, but didn't impact the sneak attack damage, then I'd have no issue at all. Why? Because the two daggers damage wise isn't really any different than a rapier. It's a style choice, rather than a clear bump in power.

B) My rule-sense is tuned around real life and the narrative. For example, if stabbing with two daggers is inherently better, than why wasn't it a thing in real life. Either murderers, or in medieval combat. Now suddenly there's a world of thieves that always attack with two daggers. Now it would be cool if that was either a specific murderer, or a thieves' (or assassins') guild's specific calling card. In that case, I don't have an issue with forgoing the second attack roll and still leaving bonus actions open for something else.

I don't have any issue with your feat. Although in my campaign, light finesse piercing weapons have a critical threat range of 19. Perhaps that's a bit of a help to the melee rogue too?

C)
Your feat would stack with this, of course, but might be less necessary. Critical hits in my campaign work differently too. You need to score 5 higher than needed to hit in addition to the natural 20, although if you score 10 more, than any hit is a critical.

Nice. Thx for the feedback.
A) Your analysis is quite welcome. The goal is to make melee weilding dagger rogue more common. Yes there is a clear bump in power with dual weilding daggers. But at the same time, you must be behind your target. That often means that you are now in the thick of combat. The risk to be brought down fast is there. Also, it's a feat. The "archer" could still shoot from relative safety, use sharp shooter feat on low AC enemies, and gain a +10 dmg. At level 12, without critical, our dual weilding dagger rogue will do an average of +7 dmg against his target while the archer will do +10 within quite a safe distance... It would only be on a crit that the feat would flare into brigthness. Risking a lot to have a chance to do more. Is it that really superior?

B) Again, The goal was to have more dagger weilding rogue. Maybe just weilding a dagger/knife would be ok. The enhance damage could be at the expense of the bonus action...

C) I do something similar. If you need a 20 to hit, and you do. you have to roll a crit confirmation. 11+ you get your crit. 10 or less, it will be a regular hit.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Nice. Thx for the feedback.
A) Your analysis is quite welcome. The goal is to make melee weilding dagger rogue more common. Yes there is a clear bump in power with dual weilding daggers. But at the same time, you must be behind your target. That often means that you are now in the thick of combat. The risk to be brought down fast is there. Also, it's a feat. The "archer" could still shoot from relative safety, use sharp shooter feat on low AC enemies, and gain a +10 dmg. At level 12, without critical, our dual weilding dagger rogue will do an average of +7 dmg against his target while the archer will do +10 within quite a safe distance... It would only be on a crit that the feat would flare into brigthness. Risking a lot to have a chance to do more. Is it that really superior?

So the backstab only option, as opposed to sneak attack is a nice throwback. And while that sort of positioning is possible in theater of the mind play like mine (and I have rules to cover it), it tends to only work if you're using a battle mat.

Having said that, as a feat it's less problematic (not sure why I didn't recognize it was a feat). And either way, it doesn't really impact the game that much. All you're really doing it increasing the sneak attack damage by 50%.

B) Again, The goal was to have more dagger weilding rogue. Maybe just weilding a dagger/knife would be ok. The enhance damage could be at the expense of the bonus action...

So this is a bit where these types of rules designs lose me. Mostly because I'm one of the "realism" types that likes things to make sense. To me it seems like what you're trying to design is the guy that brings a knife to a gunfight. No reason why you can't do it, just doesn't really make sense to me. Personally I think that it should be a heavy lift, because if there was a real advantage to it, then dagger wielding fighters would have been a thing. They were, but only because they didn't have a better weapon at the time. In addition, it seems to me that it would be cooler if they remained rare, but you have a character that put together a viable way to do it and was relatively unique.

So, leaving the reason why you would be a rogue focused on daggers to you, I'll see what I can come up with to make them better.

First, I like the idea that they do more potential damage, so an expanded critical range is fine with me. This is the biggest one, since sneak attack dice are also doubled on a critical hit.

Then I'd probably look at "common" dagger/knife maneuvers as inspiration (like your double backstab):

Perhaps a feat or ability that gives you advantage with attacks with a dagger while grappling.

"Twist the Knife" maneuver? Extra damage as a bonus action? Automatic hit the following round? What's the risk or downside? Not sure what I'd use for a mechanic on this one yet.

Threaten (I have this in my campaign) - If your attack roll would hit, you hold the completion of the attack and threaten them (blade to the throat type thing). You can complete the attack at any time, since you've already rolled the successful hit. The target can use their reaction to attempt to escape by making a Dexterity saving throw (the DC is your attack roll).

I have a parry option in my campaign (opposed attack roll), and finesse weapons have advantage on parry attempts. You can also use your reaction to parry.

A maneuver I have that ties into that is a riposte, where if you successfully parry the attack, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack. If your attack misses, they can use their reaction to make an opportunity attack. This is a great combo for rogues, though. Carry a dagger as your second weapon, Sneak attack with your primary weapon, parry an attack, and make the riposte and second sneak attack assuming other conditions are met with your primary weapon. Even better with a swashbuckler.

I think it was in UA somewhere, probably the upgraded flail weapon feat, with an ability called Batter. If you had disadvantage on an attack, but the second die would have hit, then they take a certain amount of damage. A dagger is quick, so I could see a similar maneuver allowing you to do a little damage where you would have done none.

That's a start anyway, I'll try to think of some more.

C) I do something similar. If you need a 20 to hit, and you do. you have to roll a crit confirmation. 11+ you get your crit. 10 or less, it will be a regular hit.

I went with the over 5 rule to include the confirmation automatically, and eliminate the extra roll. Most of the time, with your attack modifier, a 20 is a critical hit as expected. More importantly, it's not variable - the players know what a critical is and they've already rolled the die. They don't have to worry about a bad second roll. The main problem I have with the RAW is that if 20 is the only roll that will score a hit, then every hit that you make is a critical.
 

Trudy

First Post
I'm playing my first 5e rogue now (actually, my first rogue ever -- and I've been playing D&D for well over a decade), and all the talk of rogues petering out around mid-levels has me a little nervous.

I'm playing a human dual-wielder (rapier, dagger) rogue, swashbuckler archetype with a 20 DEX and a 17 CHA (we're level 6 right now). Is there anything I should be focusing on to ensure I don't have problems further down the road?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions / advice you can offer!
 

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