Burst Fire function/Burst Fire feat

[kreynolds]

Maybe it's just me, but I find the mechanics of the Burst Fire function of some weapons and the Burst Fire feat to be rather counterintuitive. For example, an MP5 has a 3-round burst setting in both D20 Modern and in the real world. Now, if you don't have the Burst Fire feat, then using this function expends 3 bullets but 2 of them are completely wasted.

Anybody else find this strange?

My solution to this is simple. Autofire targets an area, this we know. So, on the 3-round burst setting, if you don't have the Burst Fire feat to take full advantage of it, you can target a 5 x 10 area. How's that? It still gives you an advantage to pick up the Burst Fire feat, as the feat grants a damage bonus (+2 dice) and it also allows you to target a specific person instead of just an area.

 

[mythusmage]

The burst fire rule needs to be clarified. Since the folks at Wizards come visit every now and then, I propose the following.

"This rule applies only to automatic firearms where the number of rounds expended in a burst is not set by some device. In the case of such as the MP5 and the M16 (which have a three round burst setting) the number of rounds expended while firing a burst is three. In such cases the Burst Feat is not needed to fire only three rounds."

Add to the Burst Feat description:

This feat is only necessary when using an automatic firearm that has no set number of rounds expended when firing a burst. In the case of weapons (such as the MP5) which has a 3 round burst setting only three rounds are expended when firing a burst.

Hope this helps.

 

[kreynolds]

Mythusmage, I misread the feat and had to change my post. Is your response still in regards to my edited post? If so, I'll go ahead and reply.

 

[DM_Matt]

If you are going to allow many common weapons like the M16 and MP5, to burst for free, you need to improve the feat to make up for it. Perhaps get rid of the inexplicable need to have a high wisdom....

 

[Raptor]

When taught how to use full automatic weapons soldiers are taught all the basics and techniques of handling that weapon so in a way the skill should encompass full automatic fire and burst fire and not different feats.

 

[kreynolds]

When taught how to use full automatic weapons soldiers are taught all the basics and techniques of handling that weapon so in a way the skill should encompass full automatic fire and burst fire and not different feats.

I definately agree, but we're talking about game mechanics here. That's what I have to work with.

 

[kreynolds]

If you are going to allow many common weapons like the M16 and MP5, to burst for free...

But that's just it...they are supposed to burst for free anyways. If you can handle autofire (10 bullets at an area), then I think it makes sense you should be able to handle 3 bullets at a smaller area (5 x 10).

I've actually fired an M16A2 in both full-auto and burst mode, and the burst mode was far easier for me to keep control of the weapon. Granted, by hits on the target were not dead on, but they were certainly tighter. Personally, I had a much harder time keeping my shots tight while on full-auto. I don't even have any special training with an M16A2, so logically, it only makes sense to me that you should be able to target a smaller area (5 x 10).

...you need to improve the feat to make up for it.

I think the Burst Fire feat is much better regardless. With the feat, you can fire 5 bullets at one person for +2 die of damage. Otherwise, you're forced to target an area, whether you'd be using full-auto or my burst mode variant, and the fixed save DC isn't that hard to beat at higher levels. Once you get to higher levels, I imagine the Burst Fire feats becomes really important.

Perhaps get rid of the inexplicable need to have a high wisdom....

Heh. I've wondered about that prereq myself.

 

[dkilgo]

The high Wisdom is probably to simulate that you know what the weapon acts like when used in this fashion. An unknowledgable person will not control the weapon as well as someone that understands what the weapon is capable of.

That is my understanding of it atleast.

I think I understand why the Burst feat mentions 5 rounds instead of 3. Not that this was in question, but it just occured to me. In the military I was trained to use many fully automatic weapons to gain understanding of how to implement the weapons to gain maximum effect. Well, in training, and in combat, soldiers attempt to fire 3 to 5 round bursts from these fully automatic weapons to maximize thier accuracy. So, in D20M they just cut out the 3 part of the phrase and just used the 5. If I were having to decide on this I would have to say that when using this feat your are essentially firing a 3 to 5 round burst in the area in question.

Hello, and have a nice day.

 

[DM_Matt]

I think I understand why the Burst feat mentions 5 rounds instead of 3. Not that this was in question, but it just occured to me. In the military I was trained to use many fully automatic weapons to gain understanding of how to implement the weapons to gain maximum effect. Well, in training, and in combat, soldiers attempt to fire 3 to 5 round bursts from these fully automatic weapons to maximize thier accuracy. So, in D20M they just cut out the 3 part of the phrase and just used the 5. If I were having to decide on this I would have to say that when using this feat your are essentially firing a 3 to 5 round burst in the area in question.

Weapons with 3 round burst settings do actually fire 3 with the feat.

 

[Warchilde]

The idea of autofire and burst fire is not to increase damage to a target, but to increase the chance to hit.
With this in account, I am looking at making the feats give a better chance to hit (+1 to +4 have to play test first) and remove the additional dmg.

But that's just it...they are supposed to burst for free anyways. If you can handle autofire (10 bullets at an area), then I think it makes sense you should be able to handle 3 bullets at a smaller area (5 x 10).

Full Auto is more for mass amounts of lead into an area, and burst fire is more targeted into a single target. So without the feat I would say you could fire into the target, but with a -4 penalty to hit and again no damage increase

I've actually fired an M16A2 in both full-auto and burst mode, and the burst mode was far easier for me to keep control of the weapon. Granted, by hits on the target were not dead on, but they were certainly tighter. Personally, I had a much harder time keeping my shots tight while on full-auto. I don't even have any special training with an M16A2, so logically, it only makes sense to me that you should be able to target a smaller area (5 x 10).

I am not sure what type of M16A2 you have access to, but the ones I have fired only come with single shot and burst. The M16A1 had single shot and full auto.

Peace is HIGHLY overrated

-Warchilde