• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Buying magic items vs. finding magic items

Derren

Hero
Yes, with lots of NPC high level wizards and artificers, and lots of adventurers running around your thoughts are spot on.

You do not need any adventurers for an magic item economy to exist. There are enough other people who want them.
As long as there are people who can make magic items reliably there will be an industry for it, be it either that kings and champions make a pilgrimage to the wizards tower to petition him for a magical item or having entire guilds of casters mass produce magical weapons for the army and mercenaries.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Janx

Hero
There is always a demand for better weapons.

Exactly. Demand is inherent for any non-negative good. Somebody wants it. whatever It. is.

So the Demand is not just adventurers. Everybody who wields a sword to protect themselves wants a magic sword because its better.

Supply is the fact that this stuff exists. By the RAW, it is fairly plentiful when you randomly populate treasures and the PCs come back after 5 levels, they're pretty well stocked with excess that SOMEBODY wants to buy.

It is fictionally implausible to me that the PCs are the ONLY people to get their hands on magic items. How is it possible that only evil NPCs and the PCs manage to get ahold of magic items. No good NPC has ever owned or made a magic item? And been able to keep it out of the bully evil NPC's hands?

Bull Cookies.

That's just artificially arranging things so neatly just to enforce a low magic world and prevent a PC from being able to buy a magic item because you don't believe in Economics.

Supply = the thing people want (magic items) that exists
Demand = the fact that people want it

If there is even ONE magic item in your D&D game, then you have a magic Economy. Somebody wants that item, somebody has that item. Now it is simply a function of how much are they willing to pay. Statistically, the higher the price, the fewer willing to pay it. In a large enough population, somebody will be willing to pay it.

this might mean only the PCs are willing to do the work to track it down to the dragon's lair. Once they get back to town, the Price just dropped considerably, and folks will offer to buy or attempt to steal it.

Ironically enough, scarcity wiill drive more crazy behavior than a moderate supply will.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Exactly. Demand is inherent for any non-negative good. Somebody wants it. whatever It. is.

So the Demand is not just adventurers. Everybody who wields a sword to protect themselves wants a magic sword because its better.

Supply is the fact that this stuff exists. By the RAW, it is fairly plentiful when you randomly populate treasures and the PCs come back after 5 levels, they're pretty well stocked with excess that SOMEBODY wants to buy.

Just because somebody wants to buy it, however, doesn't mean that they'll be able to afford to. Exceptionally expensive items aren't going to be subject to mass-production because, regardless of how much demand there is, if the money made from selling them isn't a net gain versus the cost of creating them, they won't be marketed in large quantities. As such, the "market" for certain things can be so small that it's not self-sustaining (that is, people can't make a living just catering to that particular market).

A +1 longsword costs 2,315 gp. If we presume that you average peasant makes 500 gp per year in gross revenue, and has to pay out 360 gp per year (e.g. 30 gp per month) in costs, they only make 140 gp per year in net profits, so that longsword is out of their hands unless they save everything they can save for well over a decade. There's no real market there, due to prohibitive costs.

Now, a king whose total wealth in taxes and tributes is 20,000 gp per year (we'll save time and assume that this is net profit) can commission eight of these swords per year, if he wants to buy as many as he can. If his army has 10,000 men in it, that means he can equip them all with magical weapons in only 1,250 years, which clearly isn't feasible. So there's not going to be demand even at this level due to prohibitive costs.

This is particularly true when you question just how great the demand would be for a particular item. A 2,315 gp +1 longsword is granting a +1 to hit and damage, whereas a 315 gp masterwork longsword is granting a +1 to hit, for a fraction of the price. True, the magical sword is doing slightly more damage (and is slightly harder to break, and can overcome DR X/magic, but if we're talking about equipping armies that will presumably face other armies, those aren't relevant benefits), but increasing the price almost eight-fold doesn't seem to be worthwhile.

Now, you can ameliorate these issues by presuming a more robust economy - since the prices for magic items are fixed by the rulebook, whereas earning power is only loosely implied for non-adventuring characters - wherein people simply have more money to spend. But that's largely an issue of setting the background for your campaign, and there is no particularly "right" answer. That said, saying that there's no real market for expensive magic items is certainly a viable option.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Because nobody other than the adventurers (for the most part) has any?

Yes, you are correct.

I am not explaining my point well.

In my original post I clarified that for my campaigns, the example of the economy would not necessarily be true. You have to have the infrastructure.

That assumes the only source for magic items is dungeons or adventures.

Are there NPC wizards and clerics in your world? Have you house-ruled that they may not take Craft Item feats (3.xe) or take the Enchant Item Ritual (4e)? Do you have wealthy people willing to pay?

If there is a source, and a desire, there will be a market. You can throttle it somewhat by adjusting prices and wealth, but those have their own sociological impacts. Given that the rules allow it, it would be odd for there to *not* be a market, no?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Now, a king whose total wealth in taxes and tributes is 20,000 gp per year...

That number seems absurdly low. Kings typically have wealth such that they can regularly raise armies and throw them around. If a peasant makes a gross 500 GP a year, that means this guy can afford an army of... 40 peasants. Not a single knight, or spellcaster in the bunch. If you say he only needs to meet the peasant's net profit of 140 GP, he still can only pay 140 or so troops, total. And that's if he's not also doing things like building or maintaining castles, feeding those 140 peasant guards, paying other servants, and so on.

I suggest that a king's coffers are going to be much, much deeper than 20,000 GP/yr. I think you're off by at least two orders of magnitude, here.

Consider that much of the costs those peasants pay is taxes or rents to lords. The costs of food for peasants is on the order of a silver a day, about 3 GP per month. Let's say another 7 GP goes into tools, seed, and maintenance. That leaves 20 GP going into taxes and such. Thus, for every thousand working peasants in the kingdom, the king is getting 20,000 GP per *month*, not per year.

Now, you were stipulating the king at 20,000 a year net profit. So, in a tiny kingdom of, say, 10,000 people, where is the other 2,380,000 GP going? Well, into the king's budgets - for armies, and servants, and equipment, and so on. Would not magic items be working into those budgets, rather than out of the King's personal profits? He has *millions* to work with, not tens of thousands.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
That number seems absurdly low. Kings typically have wealth such that they can regularly raise armies and throw them around. If a peasant makes a gross 500 GP a year, that means this guy can afford an army of... 40 peasants. Not a single knight, or spellcaster in the bunch. If you say he only needs to meet the peasant's net profit of 140 GP, he still can only pay 140 or so troops, total. And that's if he's not also doing things like building or maintaining castles, feeding those 140 peasant guards, paying other servants, and so on.

I suggest that a king's coffers are going to be much, much deeper than 20,000 GP/yr. I think you're off by at least two orders of magnitude, here.

Looking back over things, it probably would have been better to presume that the costs of buying magic swords for the army would have been part of the outgoing expenditures drawing off of the gross revenue, rather than being something to spend the kingdom's net profits on. However, that wouldn't necessarily change the bottom line all that much, in terms of how feasible it was to buy magic swords for the army.

Consider that much of the costs those peasants pay is taxes or rents to lords. The costs of food for peasants is on the order of a silver a day, about 3 GP per month. Let's say another 7 GP goes into tools, seed, and maintenance. That leaves 20 GP going into taxes and such. Thus, for every thousand working peasants in the kingdom, the king is getting 20,000 GP per *month*, not per year.

The only presumption I made was that, for commoners, 30 gp per month goes to the costs of living. You can shift the ratio of how much of that are taxes versus the costs of buying things like food, housing, healthcare, and necessity items to any ratio you want. However, let's stick with the idea that the peasantry pays 20 gp per month in taxes.

Now, you were stipulating the king at 20,000 a year net profit. So, in a tiny kingdom of, say, 10,000 people, where is the other 2,380,000 GP going? Well, into the king's budgets - for armies, and servants, and equipment, and so on. Would not magic items be working into those budgets, rather than out of the King's personal profits? He has *millions* to work with, not tens of thousands.

Let's leave aside for a moment the issue of having a standing army at all times versus pressing the citizenry into armed service in times of need; so we'll assume an army of 10,000 and a civilian population of 10,000.

Insofar as the civilians are concerned, the actual tax-paying population is far below the total population, simply because some are going to be children and the elderly. Let's conservatively estimate that only 20% of the people fall into these extremes. We also won't presume that there's any tax burden on the soldiers (technically their taxes are simply being pre-emptively deducted from their pay, but the end result is the same).

So, eight thousand people paying 240 gp per year, gives the kingdom a gross income of 1,920,000 gp. We'll subtract the 20,000 gp net profits to give us an even 1.9 million gold pieces.

The problem is that this money has to be put back into the whole of the kingdom, not just the military. If we go with your presumption that the soldiers only earn as much as peasants, at 140 gp per soldier per year, for ten thousand soldiers that's still 1.4 million gp. So now there's only 500,000 gp left.

That money has to go to everything else. Let's presume that the kingdom's infrastructure, foreign relations, and other expenses take up half of that remainder. Now there's only 250,000 gp remaining for the military.

Most of that is going to go towards the logistical costs of having a standing army - remember, we haven't spent anything else but the soldiers' net profit. So we'll presume that the military still has to buy their equipment, food, housing, medical care, training, and other needs. That's apart from buying military equipment such as siege engines, building forts and encampments, and related expenses. Given the large variety of things we've listed here, 200,000 gp seems reasonable.

Now we're down to 50,000 gp for other things. Admittedly, this is more than 20,000 gp, but not that much more. Presuming all of this was spent on +1 longswords, it would still take almost five hundred years to equip the entire army...which is a very long time. Enough so to say that it's not worth the degree of investment for each soldier getting an extra +1 to damage (over the cost of non-magical masterwork longswords).

Of course, these numbers can be massaged all kinds of ways by manipulating many of the assumptions that we were making for where most of the rest of the money went (as well as with things like the non-taxed population, the cost for peasants to live, etc.), but that's sort of the point - when you can manipulate the details of the economy to that degree, since the rulebook doesn't go into that level of detail, you can plausibly make them turn out whatever numbers you want.
 
Last edited:

Nytmare

David Jose
It seems to me that, if the math and expectations currently being bounced around in this thread were correct, every army that ever existed would be automatically equipped with the absolute best, and most cutting edge weapons, armor, and technology imaginable.

As for make believe, and from the player's end of the spectrum, I'm a much bigger fan of games where a character's suite of magic items isn't an integral part of that character's design. Story wise, I greatly prefer problems and solutions that revolve around making the best of a bad situation and limited resources.
 

Derren

Hero
It seems to me that, if the math and expectations currently being bounced around in this thread were correct, every army that ever existed would be automatically equipped with the absolute best, and most cutting edge weapons, armor, and technology imaginable.

No, the best the army could get their hands on. Also, the definition of "best" does vary.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top