C&Ds for Online D&D 5E Character Generators

Ed Friedlander reports that WotC has asked him to remove his D&D character generators. Ed ran the generators at his site, Pathguy.com, including a D&D 5E character generator. His Pathfinder RPG character generator is still running. Thanks to Slayyne for the scoop (who also reports that at least one other site has also closed). [Update: while the actual request has not been shared, others have reported that these are very amicable requests].

You can see his closing note here.

"After almost two decades, Wizards of the Coast has asked me to remove my online character generators. I appreciate the many people who have written and thanked me for my work, and I hope you will continue to enjoy the hobby.

As a physician and gamer, I've supported and defended the hobby, and helped concerned families understand its value.

The "Dungeons and Dragons" phenomenon has encouraged young people to study other cultures. It is a game in which people work together to accomplish a meaningful goal. Characters even define themselves in terms of their good morals and their ethics. On one level, it simulates the spiritual warfare described in the Christian scriptures and in the Arthurian legends on which the game is based. I am proud that I was able to make a contribution.

My generator for Pathfinder will of course remain online. Click here for more information about this role-playing game.

May your dice come up 20s.

Ed Friedlander MD"

Back in November, the D&D Tools website suffered a similar fate, as have a couple of spellcard websites. While WotC appears to be largely easygoing as far as fan creations are concerned, they do take action when content from their products is copied or distributed.

Ed's character generator created characters by selecting a number of options, and output a character sheet similar to below. I'm not all that familiar with it, so I don't know what text, if any, it may have borrowed from the official rules.

As yet, there's no license (Open Gaming or otherwise) for D&D 5th Edition (although WotC does intend to do so), although a number of publishers have published books anyway using the older Open Gaming License for D&D 3E and 3.5.

What is interesting to hear is that some people who have received such requests describe them as very amicable. Toxic Rat says "Speaking from personal experience, I received a very nice email asking that I take down particular content owned by WotC. No threats, no warnings of legal action, just a request to honor their copyright." That's great to hear.

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[Evenglare]

I don't feel alienated as a consumer, but as a tinkering fan I feel insecure, I wish to share some of the settings I have cooked over the years, but until it is safe to do I won't.

Pretty much this for me. I sure would like to know what I can and can't do with this system and sharing my stuff. It's not good to be in a state of constant fear making a private blog for your friends, or wanting to work on a PDF to sell. I want to be a contributing member of the community. I love the system, but right now I don't know if I want to put in all this effort just to be slapped with a C&D. From what they say in this thread we will know a licensing agreement in spring... maybe. And even then we will just get news, nothing concrete. Which is frustrating to say the least.

 

[MoonSong]

I don't understand at all, if you do nothing wrong you have nothing to hide and have no problem... The system isn't fool proof, and I admit it isn't 100% accurate, sometimes it fails, but I can't imagine living in the scary world you do. I know I can tell a police officer where to stuff it if he wants to search my house with out a warrant, but I also know that if they are looking for a little kid and I have nothing to hide it is WAY better for that kid to let them in then make them waste time on a non lead...

I won't elaborate too much further because it might start getting too much into politics, but check your privilege, people's experiences aren't universal. If you don't believe me, you just mentioned the police searching for a little kid, in my country that only happens if that little kid is the child of someone important or with power, we get amber alerts and stuff, but moreover having a police officer at your door is never good and never harmless. You say nothing to hide nothing to fear, but everybody has something they want to keep private, and even if you may think you are a model citizen who can do no wrong, you can be mistaken, just going by the insane volume of laws around you are bound to have broken at least one without knowing it.

if pathguy did nothing wrong (witch again is false, merric looked, and the site was not a legal site it did not have the proper stuff up) then he could have just said so. However since we know he was in the wrong (again it has been verified) then isn't this a victory, the ststem worked? The guy not doing things above board (Confirmed by merric) got asked to change how he does things....

Just by not going the ogl route, doesn't mean it is entirely wrong, there is a chance these generators might have fallen under Fair use and outside the reach of copyright, and until we get a judge ruling on the matter -and we will never get it- it will remain forever in a grey area of IP law. In that way it is proven the system isn't working, the easiest way to get out of trouble is to blindly comply and allow the situation to keep repeating forever, risking a costly legal process is just not worth it. The sad thing is that should that kind of ruling happen it could improve everybody's lives by making the limits of IP clearer.

that IS what I feel sorry for, this world is hard enough without imagining it being worse... I can't imagine how much harder it must be believing the way you do.

well yes, but we aren't talking about big world changing laws... we are talking about laws affecting our chosen hobby...

best way to do that is to always do everything above board (Witch AGAIN, pathguy did not)

Again I'm not a cynic nor something like that, I'm mostly cheerful and always trying to do better and playing by the rules, I just try to be cautious not to get unwanted attention from the wrong people, it is incredibly easy for anybody to use the law to screw another people's lives.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I won't elaborate too much further because it might start getting too much into politics, but check your privilege, people's experiences aren't universal.

PRIVILEGE?!?!?!?!? what in the hell? what privilege do you think I have, I wasn't born rich (hell I was born to lower class family,). I don't have money or power. I bearly am working... My experiences is that this world is hard, and hard work itself isn't enough you need luck... You need to check what you say to people...

If you don't believe me, you just mentioned the police searching for a little kid, in my country that only happens if that little kid is the child of someone important or with power, we get amber alerts and stuff, but moreover having a police officer at your door is never good and never harmless.

neither of us know what country the other lives in. I'm sorry if you live in some horrible oppressive country, but I live in the USA.

You say nothing to hide nothing to fear, but everybody has something they want to keep private, and even if you may think you are a model citizen who can do no wrong, you can be mistaken, just going by the insane volume of laws around you are bound to have broken at least one without knowing it.

Maybe I have, I'm sure it is something I can explain... what kind of little blue book law do you think I can BOTH not know I broke and matters?

Just by not going the ogl route, doesn't mean it is entirely wrong, there is a chance these generators might have fallen under Fair use and outside the reach of copyright, and until we get a judge ruling on the matter -and we will never get it- it will remain forever in a grey area of IP law.

Wait... why would you trust a judge when you just went over how you don't trust anyone or anything?!?

In that way it is proven the system isn't working, the easiest way to get out of trouble is to blindly comply and allow the situation to keep repeating forever, risking a costly legal process is just not worth it. The sad thing is that should that kind of ruling happen it could improve everybody's lives by making the limits of IP clearer.

wait... so you do trust the system, you just have no confidence you could win?!?!? If someone really had a leg to stand on, they would stand up for themselves... by backing down over and over again, you do kind of look like you know you would loose...

Again I'm not a cynic nor something like that, I'm mostly cheerful and always trying to do better and playing by the rules, I just try to be cautious not to get unwanted attention from the wrong people, it is incredibly easy for anybody to use the law to screw another people's lives.

I'm pretty sure that is not true... it isn't EASY for ANYBODY to use the law to mess with someone... it may be POSSIBLE for SOMEPEOPLE to do so, but not easy and not anybody...

 

[Zireael]

If the matter were trade dress or trademark, couldn't that be addressed by removing the use of such? If the matter were the inclusion of text (or other material clearly subject to copyright), that could be addressed by avoiding such usage.

I worry, though, about where to draw the line on what is subject to copyright. For example, do class names fall under copyright? Do power names and feat names fall under copyright? I don't think you can copyright a feat effect ("this feat grants a +1 bonus to attacks made with a weapon specified when the feat is taken"), but you can (perhaps) copyright the feat name and particular wording.

I worry too, about the difficulty of differentiating private usage (for one's self) from public usage (for anyone on the net), because the target use is "local" (one's self, and one's gaming group), with the gaming group very easily growing to a local community (a gaming club), to the public at large -- better tools might see their usage grow very quickly, what with the speed which which references can be cross the net.

That's a very good question.

He's had a deal with TSR to make character generators since before WOTC bought TSR!!! He's been doing this since 2nd edition

(they were downloadable commandline dos programs.) He made them for 2nd edition and alternity, he made them for 3.0, 3.5, 4e, and now 5?

So why change now he had permission back in the TSR days did the permission expire and get overlooked?

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-5E-Character-Generators/page13#ixzz3RF4jCtv4
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That's the key question.

And tertio, why take down Pathfinder too? Wizards have no copyright on this one...

 

[pemerton]

why take down Pathfinder too? Wizards have no copyright on this one...

Yes they do. Pathfinder is published under a licence - the OGL - which has as one of its terms Paizo's acknowledgement of WotC's copyright in the d20 SRD.

 

[MoonSong]

PRIVILEGE?!?!?!?!? what in the hell? what privilege do you think I have

...but I live in the USA.

Which is a privilege, it gives you an advantage that not everybody has. (sorry for the unintended vitriol)

(In case you are wondering, my country's name roughly translates to what I said in the sidebar -just adjusted to sound more poetic-. You just need to say it in a certain language, and curiously that language's endonym is roughly the same word as the country's name)

Maybe I have, I'm sure it is something I can explain... what kind of little blue book law do you think I can BOTH not know I broke and matters?

It can be something as simple as owning a cutter, and the punishment can be as hard as a felony/ a third strike which means prison time.

Wait... why would you trust a judge when you just went over how you don't trust anyone or anything?!?

I never said I don't trust anybody, I just don't have blind faith in the system. A judge ruling would be a good thing overall to clarify the limits of IP law, which depending on the actual ruling either means less abusive C&Ds or clearer limits which allow people to be more free to create. Something of an improvement over the current situation were a big corporation with lots of money can engage in scare tactics with impunity exercising rights it may not have.

wait... so you do trust the system, you just have no confidence you could win?!?!? If someone really had a leg to stand on, they would stand up for themselves... by backing down over and over again, you do kind of look like you know you would loose...

One thing is knowing you are right and that justice in your side, another very different is having the time and tens of thousands of dollars to waste in legal fees to get a favorable ruling. Even if you win, your reputation is ruined just by the mere fact of having been through a criminal process, and all those legal fees you'll never see them back. There is a reason innocent people plead guilty.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Pretty much this for me. I sure would like to know what I can and can't do with this system and sharing my stuff. It's not good to be in a state of constant fear making a private blog for your friends, or wanting to work on a PDF to sell. I want to be a contributing member of the community. I love the system, but right now I don't know if I want to put in all this effort just to be slapped with a C&D. From what they say in this thread we will know a licensing agreement in spring... maybe. And even then we will just get news, nothing concrete. Which is frustrating to say the least.

Its WOTC's game. If they want to mudstomp all creativity & enthusiasm for it then it is their right. Right now they are doing everything they can to ensure the huge burst of popularity 5E enjoyed upon release dies in a fire.

 

[Umbran]

Which is a privilege, it gives you an advantage that not everybody has. (sorry for the unintended vitriol)

Yes, but with respect - I am pretty sure nobody in the current world is getting hauled off for violating WotC copyright. The risk to your person from getting a C&D is exceedingly low, no matter what country you live in.

I'm going to guess that, if your country is that bad, you'd never actually receive the C&D anyway, and the local government would do squat-all to assist enforcement.

 

[MoonSong]

Yes, but with respect - I am pretty sure nobody in the current world is getting hauled off for violating WotC copyright. The risk to your person from getting a C&D is exceedingly low, no matter what country you live in.

I'm going to guess that, if your country is that bad, you'd never actually receive the C&D anyway, and the local government would do squat-all to assist enforcement.

Of course not, but just to put it in context, that part is more about different worldviews, and it started when GMforPowergamers expressed condolences over my worldview, a part of the back and fort is about it. Just a way to tell him that my worldview isn't pessimistic just appropriate to my circumstances which are very different from his.

And it all kind of started when I said that complying with with a C&D isn't an admission of guilt, just not wanting problems. He said he has actually answered and contested one in the past and I told him that in my culture no conflict with the law is small enough for you not to put your integrity first and just do whatever it takes for it to be over and quickly.

 

[weldon]

Just by not going the ogl route, doesn't mean it is entirely wrong, there is a chance these generators might have fallen under Fair use and outside the reach of copyright, and until we get a judge ruling on the matter -and we will never get it- it will remain forever in a grey area of IP law. In that way it is proven the system isn't working, the easiest way to get out of trouble is to blindly comply and allow the situation to keep repeating forever, risking a costly legal process is just not worth it. The sad thing is that should that kind of ruling happen it could improve everybody's lives by making the limits of IP clearer.

They will always fall within the reach of copyright, but there is a very slim chance that something like this could be permitted under fair use. I can accept your point that there is some grey area, but it's still narrow.

Even if you clear the fair use hurdle, you would still run afoul of trademark law. It's hard to imagine a useful character generator that is not properly licensed to use ALL of the IP needed for character creation and advancement, including spell lists, etc.