Campaign Balance

[Drobney Falcor]

I've been toying with an experimental character creation method for a campaign I will be running that's been altered since I first saw it.
Basically each character would start out with 5 levels of a base class. Then they are given to "points" that they can spend to gain other benefits: 1 point= +1 Template (or two if both points are spent), +1 Monster Class level (Or two if both points are spent), +2 to starting gold level. 2 points= Minor Artifact.
My idea is to limit the amount of base class levels they can have (I want them to grow into abilities so they can understand them better) while still giving them more power than a 5th level. So a character could be level 5-7.
Obviously this has some balance issues...

Which is where you all come in!

1.I've read that if you take a monster class level you must progress until it is finished. One of my players wants to play a rakshasa and I don't want to limit any creativity. I also don't want to force him to take 14 levels of a race class. I think it's reasonable that he would only take a 2 level dip just to get some early abilities to help flesh out his rakshasa character.

2. When you use Templates or Monster Class levels, do you get skills, HD, feats and all that fun stuff as well?

If there is anything I could clarify about the idea, the campaign, or the players, please reply and I will be happy to do so as well.

 

[Dandu]

I suspect that being able to buy more magic items or getting a minor artifact will prove to be more powerful than having a template or monster class level.

 

[Drobney Falcor]

I suspect that being able to buy more magic items or getting a minor artifact will prove to be more powerful than having a template or monster class level.

True. Do you have any ideas on how to balance characters who wouldn't want a level adjustment? (Besides more class levels). Maybe tone down the amount of gold and completely ditch the artifact.

 

[Dandu]

To be honest, there isn't going to be a simple or quick answer as the system was not designed for this sort of thing. I'll have to think about this.

Offhand, I'd suggest letting them each acquire a balanced template for free as a result of their actions during roleplaying. For example, a Necromancer could become a Necropolitan (without having to lose a level first), a Rogue could become a Dark creature, a Barbarian could become Feral, etc.

Here is the master template list.

 

[cjosephs1s]

To answer your second question, yes and no. If you take the monster racial progression then you get everything the moster gets basically over the course of the progression. They have a lot of these in savage species (such as the raksasha). Most players won't want to just dip into a race a few levels though as a lot of the really good stuff comes at later levels; especially ability bonuses. Take the raksasha. It gains spell immunity to level 8 over the course of the progression. So if you only dipped a few levels you'd only gain a slight increase in two abilities, a bite attack and sorcerer spells. However if you take the entire progression, you become immune to 8th level spells and gain considerable ability boost to several stats and moderate to slight abiity boosts to a few others, plus other special qualities of the raksasha. With monster classes you also have to go all the way with them. So its all or nothing and all is usually a good way to go. So yes, you get HD, BAB, Skills, HP, feats, saves, and the monster special abilities.

Templates are things added to monsters that usually enhance it in some way and change it somehow racially, but usually templates on their own don't give HD, BAB, Skills, HP, Feats, or saves. They might enhance or reduce these things (half dragon ups the HD of a creature by 1 catagory up to a d12 for example) but they do not give them inherently.

If you don't have a copy of Savage Species find one. It has about all the rules on templates and monsters as PCs that have been created for the game. It doesnt' have everysingle one but think of it as you would a "Complete" book. If you wanted a warrior type you'd look in the Complete Warrior for good ideas. Savage Species does this for templates and monster classes.

This will definetly allow player creativity. You just have to adjust your game a little so that monsters can interact inside a city as its normally not very normal for a Fire Giant, Raksasha, Gheale, and Treant to just stroll up to the inn and say they want a beer and a room..lol But it is tons of fun to play one!

 

[Tovec]

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] it depends what template or race.

1.I've read that if you take a monster class level you must progress until it is finished. One of my players wants to play a rakshasa and I don't want to limit any creativity. I also don't want to force him to take 14 levels of a race class. I think it's reasonable that he would only take a 2 level dip just to get some early abilities to help flesh out his rakshasa character.

2. When you use Templates or Monster Class levels, do you get skills, HD, feats and all that fun stuff as well?

If there is anything I could clarify about the idea, the campaign, or the players, please reply and I will be happy to do so as well.

1. The reason you have to take all the levels "until it is finished" is because there is no 3 HD rakshasa, only a 14 HD one. Most monsters aren't "finished" though and can be advanced through even more racial HD. I just want to point that out.
1b. I'm sure a half form could be made, with only a couple HD and some key abilities. I once made a 1HD (later 2HD) undead creature with infectious bite (vampire). You just have to be careful and know what you're doing.

2. Templates (as they currently exist pre-your rules) are applied to base creatures. They take ... say human and ADD stuff. Darkvision, improved strength, skill points, etc. These traits are added onto base abilities like an extra feat and skill point.
Monster classes are basically RACES for monsters. They ARE the base creature. When using a creature that has that handy "here's how you make a PC" section then use those stats as normal instead of an elf or human or dwarf. If they don't then it gets trickier. The easiest way that exists in that case is to use the "whole" creature and take it "until it is finished". If that isn't an option then you can try to work out racial stats including ability boosts or penalties but its not always simple working out a level adjustment or how many racial HD that creature has afterward.

In general I think your system to make things easier - isn't.
You need to put much more thought into what you want, what you have and how to get there. Only then can you make a standard enough to make a "rule". Without knowledge on how it currently works, it all falls apart.

 

[cjosephs1s]

If that isn't an option then you can try to work out racial stats including ability boosts or penalties but its not always simple working out a level adjustment or how many racial HD that creature has afterward.

Agreed. Its very hard and time consuming to work out a racial progression for a monster (or even a template with a level adjustment). Our group has been doing this for a few years as we love to play new monsters and it generally takes us as players anywhere from a full weekend to a few weeks to make a progression for something and even then our DM still has to approve it and we consult each other for guidance. So its not impossible, just very hard and the rules aren't exact either. Its a guessing game with this stuff sometimes. This is why you see dozens of posts on topics that involve Level adjustments even if they are just +1s or +2s. The good news is once you get "good" at it (if you can call educated guessing being good at something..lol) it gets easier and can be done in a week or so usually with some help. And there's a lot of help on ENworld and usually people that love to get creative and work through difficult concepts(thanks all!!!) But like Tovac said, you have to know the "rules and concepts" first and know what you want before you hit the drawing board.

 

[irdeggman]

As I recall the rules in Savage Species do state you must take all levels before taking any levels in another class.

But go to the Savage Progressions articles at the WotC site instead. .

Savage Progressions: Gaining a Template Midcampaign

It has a different set of rules and specifically states you do not need to take all levels and can take them alternatively with other class levels if desired.

I think the pattern of the Savage Progressions articles more closely follows what you want.

 

[Visigani]

*sigh*

Gestalt the first five levels.

For example: A pixie has +4 LA (if I recall correctly). A pixie Sorc 5-Rogue 1/Pixie 4 would be the rough equivalent of a Human Sorc 5/Rogue 5.

Cleric 5/Paladin 3/Saint 2.

This would allow you to add templates, races, and a host of other abilities while maintaining the majority of what balance already exists in the game.

 

[Drobney Falcor]

Offhand, I'd suggest letting them each acquire a balanced template for free as a result of their actions during roleplaying.

Some Players might not want a template, but I want to limit the amount of class levels to five. The increased starting gold just seems more ridiculous after scanning what they might actually buy with the money (Which also applies to putting an artifact into a level 5 character's hands). I still want the players to have a bit more power than a 5th level (So do the players). I'm thinking of 7 as a good point.

1b. I'm sure a half form could be made, with only a couple HD and some key abilities. I once made a 1HD (later 2HD) undead creature with infectious bite (vampire). You just have to be careful and know what you're doing.

I think I will have to discuss with the player who wants a rakshasa about some kind of +2 ECL base race for his character. He doesn't want to play one for all of the powerful abilities but rather its roleplaying functions: It's body type and a few race based abilities. I could use some suggestions if anyone would like to help.

I know that a CR for a monster is calculated with the fact that the character has gained exp as well as appropriate treasure. So should a level 5 PC with a +2 Template start play with the starting gold for a 7th level character?

I guess if it comes down to it (it being no other options for balance) I will give the players 7 level cap. They can then choose 5 levels of a base class and use the final two levels for either a template, level-adjusted race, or more base classes.