Campaign Balance

[cjosephs1s]

For the Raksasha, there is the anthropomorphic races. These are also listed in Savage Species at the very end in some of the tables. Basically they are sentient bipedal animals. Think of a cat that walks on two legs or a gorilla that is as smart as human. This would give him the "look" of the raksasha (tiger) with a low ECL and a few stat boosts.

If you bring a character in at level 7 then start him off with gold for a level 7 PC (19,000gp worth of equipment and gold). Don't worry about it being a lot because its not. Let the PCs spend the money how they want on whatever gear your campaign allows. It won't go far, trust me. They are likely to get a +2 weapon, +2 armor, and a +2 something else and that's about all their gold.

 

[Tovec]

Some Players might not want a template, but I want to limit the amount of class levels to five. The increased starting gold just seems more ridiculous after scanning what they might actually buy with the money (Which also applies to putting an artifact into a level 5 character's hands). I still want the players to have a bit more power than a 5th level (So do the players). I'm thinking of 7 as a good point.

This is kind of what I was talking about before about understanding the rules before making things up. How much more money were you thinking if they chose that option. Artifacts seem like a hugely impressive price point as some of them have no price listed.

If you want them to have better gear you can give them level 7 gold OR you can make it plot or background-related. Why do they have more money, how did they get it. A lot of aspects of the game rely on a 5th level party having 5th level gold.

I think I will have to discuss with the player who wants a rakshasa about some kind of +2 ECL base race for his character. He doesn't want to play one for all of the powerful abilities but rather its roleplaying functions: It's body type and a few race based abilities. I could use some suggestions if anyone would like to help.

What abilities does he want. A simple +2 can be applied to any number of things. It also seems like you may not understand how level adjustments and racial HD work in relation to class levels. I will explain below.

I know that a CR for a monster is calculated with the fact that the character has gained exp as well as appropriate treasure. So should a level 5 PC with a +2 Template start play with the starting gold for a 7th level character?

A CR for a monster is based on a group of 4 using a quarter of their abilities to defeat the monster. You also need to understand how templates work or are applied. See below.

I guess if it comes down to it (it being no other options for balance) I will give the players 7 level cap. They can then choose 5 levels of a base class and use the final two levels for either a template, level-adjusted race, or more base classes.

Okay here let me try and explain it step by step.

A level 7 character can be the following:
- A 7 level fighter (base class) with race of human (0 lvl adj).
- A 5 level fighter (base class) with a templated (+2 lvl adj) human.
- A 3 level fighter (base class) with a template (+2 lvl adj) and 2 racial HD.

A TEMPLATE is added to a base creature. It is a fixed amount (usually) and adds EXTRA traits to that base creature. Example templates are half-dragon, half-celestial, vampire, lycanthrope, etc.
A RACE is the base creature. It adds any other things, including class levels or templates.
RACIAL HIT DICE are similar to class levels and are added the same way. They are also a characters race. Most common races have no racial HD but many monstrous races do.
CLASS LEVELS are what the class advances in. When trying to build a character for a certain level they are usually counted last and are easiest to advance in. They have HD similar to racial HD.

ECL stands for Effective Character Level and is a term used for nothing other than to explain the relation between Effective Level and character level. For that human fighter above, they are the same at 7.

Hopefully this is clearer. A Raksasa with a +2 level adjustment for an ECL 7 character will have 5 class levels assuming he has nothing else slowing his advancement such as racial HD or a template.

Again, if you want help making something up for the PC then post what he is looking for in the race and we can work on it.

 

[Drobney Falcor]

Again, if you want help making something up for the PC then post what he is looking for in the race and we can work on it.

Maybe it was the way I wrote my inquiry, but I do understand how racial HD, templates and such contribute to an ECL. That said, I have come to the conclusion that I will not be giving my players any more starting gold in an attempt to create balance. Rather I will begin the campaign with a 7th level party (5 base classes +2 whatever for an ECL of 7).

As for the rakshasa, I am still wondering if taking a 2 level dip into its SS (Savage Species) progression would be unbalancing. That is, he would only be taking the first two levels and foregoing any furtherance.
If balance will be an issue then I would greatly appreciate any help in creating a rakshasa race with only a +2 level adjustment

​

After writing some notes down from both the MM and SS, here is what I would expect out of the rakshasa race:
Bare Minimum:
-Medium Outsider
-40 speed (Basic)
-60ft darkvision (Basic)
-Languages: Common, Infernal, Undercommon
-2 Claws (1d4+STR bonus)
-Vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts
-+2 CHA

Additions that would attribute to a +2 level adjustment. (Not all necessarily need to be included):
-Bite (1d6+1/2 STR bonus)
-Bonus armor class (MM has this listed as +9 for tough fur)
-Skill bonuses (Based on SS class skills) Bluff, Disguise, Move Silently, Preform, Sense Motive.
-Alternate form (X/day for X hours)
-Detect thoughts
-Spell Immunity (1st)
-Spells (As an X level sorcerer with cleric spells being available to learn)

Obviously I couldn't include all of these abilities in the race. But if you could help work off of the bare minimum then I would be extremely thankful.

 

[Tovec]

Maybe it was the way I wrote my inquiry, but I do understand how racial HD, templates and such contribute to an ECL. That said, I have come to the conclusion that I will not be giving my players any more starting gold in an attempt to create balance. Rather I will begin the campaign with a 7th level party (5 base classes +2 whatever for an ECL of 7).

As for the rakshasa, I am still wondering if taking a 2 level dip into its SS (Savage Species) progression would be unbalancing. That is, he would only be taking the first two levels and foregoing any furtherance.
If balance will be an issue then I would greatly appreciate any help in creating a rakshasa race with only a +2 level adjustment

My bad, I think it did have to do with your mixing of terms a couple of times. We can move on now that the basics are settled and agreed upon.

I personally have a strong distaste for Savage Species as it seems anything I take from there tends to break the game in one form or another. Be it hybrids, powers too strong for play, templates that make no sense or strange half-creatures that shouldn't exist.

​

After writing some notes down from both the MM and SS, here is what I would expect out of the rakshasa race:
Bare Minimum:
-Medium Outsider
-40 speed (Basic)
-60ft darkvision (Basic)
-Languages: Common, Infernal, Undercommon
-2 Claws (1d4+STR bonus)
-Vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts
-+2 CHA

- I assume you are keeping the type as Outsider (native).
- A pure +2 CHA shouldn't really have any effect overall. If you wanted you could boost it higher and maybe add CON as well if you are willing to give it some decent penalties too. +2 CON, +4 CHA, -2 INT, -2 OTHER*(STR or WIS). Just saying.
- Vulnerability to blessed crossbows seems odd and strangely deadly. Where did that come from?

Additions that would attribute to a +2 level adjustment. (Not all necessarily need to be included):
-Bite (1d6+1/2 STR bonus)
-Bonus armor class (MM has this listed as +9 for tough fur)
-Skill bonuses (Based on SS class skills) Bluff, Disguise, Move Silently, Preform, Sense Motive.
-Alternate form (X/day for X hours)
-Detect thoughts
-Spell Immunity (1st)
-Spells (As an X level sorcerer with cleric spells being available to learn)

Obviously I couldn't include all of these abilities in the race. But if you could help work off of the bare minimum then I would be extremely thankful.

- Okay, you listed ALL traits from the Rakshasas as Characters section. What of these are most important to you or the player?
- Immediately I would cut the spellcasting as that can be the most unbalancing.
- Also, Spell Immunity?? The 14 ECL one only has spell resistance. A trait I would likely cut unless you find it dire. It is something that doesn't often come up and results in a pretty high cost ability.
- I wouldn't have natural armor. If I did, I wouldn't have it higher than +2/+4.
- Throw the Bite in with the Claws for free.
- What kinds of skill bonuses were you thinking? How many skills?
- Unless it is the necessary trait you were wanting for the character, I really wouldn't allow Read Thoughts at will. A limited form per day would be easier to buy off.
- Change Shape (instead of Aternate Form) as per the monster description would be fine. Change Shape by itself I would probably rule to be +1 by itself.

More thoughts?

 

[Drobney Falcor]

- A pure +2 CHA shouldn't really have any effect overall. If you wanted you could boost it higher and maybe add CON as well if you are willing to give it some decent penalties too. +2 CON, +4 CHA, -2 INT, -2 OTHER*(STR or WIS). Just saying.

In the MM, Rakshasas as characters have no bad stats (+2 STR, +4 DEX, +6 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS and +6 WIS). SS has the starting abilitiy adjustments at +2 CON and +2 CHA. Given that these are its strongest abilities (according to MM), I wouldn't mind allowing just those two bonuses. Maybe add a -2 WIS for a rakshasa's bloated ego and self-assurance.

- Vulnerability to blessed crossbows seems odd and strangely deadly. Where did that come from?

From SS: Vulnerable to Blessed Crossbow Bolts (Ex): Any hit
scored with a blessed crossbow bolt instantly slays a rakshasa.

this is a unique roleplaying oppurtunity that both myself and the player are aware of and comply to. As a DM i would never give the enemy's blessed bolts unless it was worth the risk. example: someone wronged by the rakshasa learns of this vulnerability and uses it to threaten him into helping him in some way. Then the player can make the decision of whether he will be able to talk his way out, hide behind the party, or comply with his wishes. Either way it will be a challenge where the risk (instant death) is worth the reward (which for his character would be great power or wealth).

- Okay, you listed ALL traits from the Rakshasas as Characters section. What of these are most important to you or the player?
- Immediately I would cut the spellcasting as that can be the most unbalancing.
- Also, Spell Immunity?? The 14 ECL one only has spell resistance. A trait I would likely cut unless you find it dire. It is something that doesn't often come up and results in a pretty high cost ability.
- I wouldn't have natural armor. If I did, I wouldn't have it higher than +2/+4.
- Throw the Bite in with the Claws for free.
- What kinds of skill bonuses were you thinking? How many skills?
- Unless it is the necessary trait you were wanting for the character, I really wouldn't allow Read Thoughts at will. A limited form per day would be easier to buy off.
- Change Shape (instead of Aternate Form) as per the monster description would be fine. Change Shape by itself I would probably rule to be +1 by itself.

More thoughts?

I've realized now that the MM Rakshasa and the SS progression are different. Which is why certain abilities like Change shape(MM) and Alter self (SS) are present. SS has spell immunity, MM spell resistance. Anyways...

-I guess I will cut spellcasting as he is already using a spellcasting class that he created (Which might be a topic for another thread), and I can see how that could easily unbalance the level adjustment.
-For spell resistance, How low could I go to include this? I do see it as a bit vital to a rakshasa in the way of role playing (They are naturally resistant) . So if a low level spell resistance could be included that would be great. If not, meh.
-Natural armor bonus of +2 or +1 would be fine. At least one since it makes sense (to me at least) that a rakshasa would have the tough fur.
-I didn't want to include a bite just because a 1d6 on hand always seems pretty good in its own right. But if isn't too much I will definetly include it.
-As for skill bonuses, I guess a +2 bonus on bluff and disguise (+4 on bluff when using detect thoughts and +4 on disguise when using change shape). This is close to what the MM lists its skill bonuses are and how they are effected by its natural abilities (Change shape and Detect thoughts)
-Change shape 1/day for 3 hours would be nice but the duration could be lower. and Detect thoughts 1/day would be just as nice (I neglected to mention that this would not be at will). Both of these abilities I see as essential to what a rakshasa is, yet can be discarded if it would be too much on the level adjustment.


I understand this might seem like I'm trying to fit it all into a narrow space, but I am completely open to what can be toned down or completely removed as long as it still seems like what a rakshasa would have naturally (Without any development into a full blown one) and still maintains that +2 level cap.
I guess if there was anything that should be first to go I would say spell resistance and then AC bonus. Detect thoughts and and change shape are pretty crucial to character he wants to play (A deceiving, power hungry tyrant).

If there is anything that I was not clear on or could include please respond. I'm really glad you're helping me and I know the player will be even more glad.

 

[Tovec]

I just want to preface by saying all my suggestions (especially about what constitutes a +2 LA) are just that, suggestions. I'm no expert. Ultimately, as DM, you should make or rule whatever you are comfortable with.

I think what I've outlined below is a +2, albeit a STRONG +2. The crossbow thing actually knocks a lot of wind from the sails. The player knows you have Kryptonite on him whenever you need it. Make sure that he remembers that vulnerability, like vampires and garlic, and it should be great.

Some of what I'm going to discuss will be within an aasimar/tiefling (A/T). I know they are +1 only and not a prime example but I think they'll do.

In the MM, Rakshasas as characters have no bad stats (+2 STR, +4 DEX, +6 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS and +6 WIS). SS has the starting abilitiy adjustments at +2 CON and +2 CHA. Given that these are its strongest abilities (according to MM), I wouldn't mind allowing just those two bonuses. Maybe add a -2 WIS for a rakshasa's bloated ego and self-assurance.

I was only saying there are allowances at a sliding scale if you wanted to have more than just a +2 CHA. A +2 CHA by itself is fine. Fits right in the scale for A/T.

From SS: Vulnerable to Blessed Crossbow Bolts (Ex): Any hit
scored with a blessed crossbow bolt instantly slays a rakshasa.

this is a unique roleplaying oppurtunity that both myself and the player are aware of and comply to. As a DM i would never give the enemy's blessed bolts unless it was worth the risk. example: someone wronged by the rakshasa learns of this vulnerability and uses it to threaten him into helping him in some way. Then the player can make the decision of whether he will be able to talk his way out, hide behind the party, or comply with his wishes. Either way it will be a challenge where the risk (instant death) is worth the reward (which for his character would be great power or wealth).

This is what I was talking about in disliking the SS. If it is something cool then by all means use it. If anything a niche penalty can offset the LA a bit so its good. Outright kills eh? Nice. If I may, I don't have direct access to SS, does it have to be Crossbow?

I've realized now that the MM Rakshasa and the SS progression are different. Which is why certain abilities like Change shape(MM) and Alter self (SS) are present. SS has spell immunity, MM spell resistance. Anyways...

Whenever possible, I would recommend using the MM version of ANY ability as it will be more standardized and should work out better in 3.5. *shakes fist at SS*

-I guess I will cut spellcasting as he is already using a spellcasting class that he created (Which might be a topic for another thread), and I can see how that could easily unbalance the level adjustment.
-For spell resistance, How low could I go to include this? I do see it as a bit vital to a rakshasa in the way of role playing (They are naturally resistant) . So if a low level spell resistance could be included that would be great. If not, meh.
-Natural armor bonus of +2 or +1 would be fine. At least one since it makes sense (to me at least) that a rakshasa would have the tough fur.
-I didn't want to include a bite just because a 1d6 on hand always seems pretty good in its own right. But if isn't too much I will definetly include it.
-As for skill bonuses, I guess a +2 bonus on bluff and disguise (+4 on bluff when using detect thoughts and +4 on disguise when using change shape). This is close to what the MM lists its skill bonuses are and how they are effected by its natural abilities (Change shape and Detect thoughts)
-Change shape 1/day for 3 hours would be nice but the duration could be lower. and Detect thoughts 1/day would be just as nice (I neglected to mention that this would not be at will). Both of these abilities I see as essential to what a rakshasa is, yet can be discarded if it would be too much on the level adjustment.

- Spellcasting: I'm glad we agree.
- Spell Resistance: I would go with a copy of the monk's diamond soul ability, minus the class requirements. If you think 10 + Level is low, I recommend trying it out and then bump it to 15(or 20) + lvl if need be.
'Diamond Soul (Ex): At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance
equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk
with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check
(1d20 + caster level; see Spell Resistance, page 177) that equals or
exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.'
- Natural Armor: +2 or +1 doesn't make much of a difference. I might cut it entirely but I'd say its your call what number you want.
- Bite: You are right, with the toolbox this player has, no bite.
- Skills: Make Disguise and Bluff class skills but no bonuses from race. Then give the line from the monster's description.
'*When using change shape, a rakshasa gains an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If reading an opponent's mind, its circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks increase by a further +4.'
- Change Shape: 1/day is great, no better or worse than A/T's daylight/darkness. I'd have no length of use. Once a day is good enough.
- Detect Thoughts: 1/day too, cool. Use his caster level (you said he has his own casting class right?) as the duration and DCs and otherwise I would base it on the spell.

I understand this might seem like I'm trying to fit it all into a narrow space, but I am completely open to what can be toned down or completely removed as long as it still seems like what a rakshasa would have naturally (Without any development into a full blown one) and still maintains that +2 level cap.
I guess if there was anything that should be first to go I would say spell resistance and then AC bonus. Detect thoughts and and change shape are pretty crucial to character he wants to play (A deceiving, power hungry tyrant).

If there is anything that I was not clear on or could include please respond. I'm really glad you're helping me and I know the player will be even more glad.

Everything seemed clear. I'm glad I knew you thought the change shape and read thoughts to be vital.
What I was trying to get across before was that this Raksasha is a younger or junior member of the species. In time he would have developed into the 14 lvl adjust creature but this is a "baby" form.

 

[Drobney Falcor]

Okay, here's what I think I'm going to show to my player:

Rakshasa (Medium Outsider) Level adjustment +2

• +2 CHA, +2 CON, -2 WIS
• 40ft speed
• 60ft Darkvision
• Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal, Undercommon
• 2 Claws (1d4 + STR bonus)
• Vulnerability to Blessed crossbow bolts (Yes, it must be bolts)
• Change Shape (1 change and back/day)
• Detect Thoughts (1/day CL=Spellcasting levels) DC:12 + CHA bonus
• +5 on Disguise (When using Change Shape)
• +5 on Disguise and Bluff (When using Detect Thoughts. Stacks)
• Spell resistance= 12
• Natural armor +2

I felt the original bonus for disguise when using change shape (+10) was too high considering the original bonus available when used in tandem with Detect Thoughts (+4. For a total of +14). So I bumped Detect Thought's bonus up 1 and Change Shape's bonus down 5.

I didn't want spell resistance to be too high since I consider it one of the most powerful abilities that this race has access to. So I kinda used your suggestion for the monk's similar ability except had it at 10 + 2 (2 for the level adjustment). This still has the possibility of being bumped up (I'll talk with the player)

If this still isn't quite a +2 level adjustment, either too powerful or weak, final tweaks could be made. For the time being, however, I'm pretty happy with how it turned out and I'm sure the player will accept it as well. I'll probably reach him today and discuss it over. When we've finalized the decision I can post if it you'd like.
You've done a great deal of help in balancing this character. I still have his custom made class to adjust (The Tyrant) and I may start up another thread if I'm having trouble. Cheers mate!

 

[Tovec]

Sounds good. Try it out.

Now time for info on this "Tyrant" class.

 

[Drobney Falcor]

He has agreed to use my (considering the amount of help you added I should say our) level adjusted race. The only slight differences are that the spell resistance has been altered (was a set number but i realized it would be useless at higher levels) to 5 + ECL. Also I have removed the -2 WIS because it just makes sense.

Now time for info on this "Tyrant" class.

I will leave this to another thread which I don't know when I'll post. I still want to go over it with him 1on1 before I bring it to the message board. Hope you'll contribute to that as well.

 

[Tovec]

He has agreed to use my (considering the amount of help you added I should say our) level adjusted race. The only slight differences are that the spell resistance has been altered (was a set number but i realized it would be useless at higher levels) to 5 + ECL. Also I have removed the -2 WIS because it just makes sense.

I wouldn't recommend 5 + ECL as ECL is a term generally used in abstract. 7 + Level would be the closest rules-wise.
Took away WIS penalty and CON bonus, or just the -2 WIS?

I will leave this to another thread which I don't know when I'll post. I still want to go over it with him 1on1 before I bring it to the message board. Hope you'll contribute to that as well.

Sounds good. I'm bad at making classes though. I've made 3 races, 2 classes and the classes ended up weak somehow.