Campaign Conundrum 3 - Bull Rushing

[werk]

That's not quite true. Displacement is a little different from actual total concealment because you can still target the enemy with Targeted spells, without any chance of failure (due to missing anyway). If you can target him with a hold person, an attack, I see no reason why you can't 'target him' with a bull rush, another attack.

You are attacking, not targeting.

Disarm looks the same as bullrush, opposed checks with no attack roll. You are saying that you can disarm a displaced opponent without a miss chance?

Concealment miss chance doesn't apply if there is no attack roll.

That is very true, since attacks that do not require an attack roll are invalid against totally concealed opponents. (If you read it this way, it all works as written.)

 

[Infiniti2000]

You are attacking, not targeting.

Disarm looks the same as bullrush, opposed checks with no attack roll. You are saying that you can disarm a displaced opponent without a miss chance?

You're attacking with a hold person spell, too, are you not? Both attacks negate invisibility, for example. I admit it's not entirely clear, but I'm only pointing out that displacement is not 100% equal to total concealment. Based on the fact that you can target a displaced opponent with spells without a miss chance, you should be able to attack that opponent without a miss chance for those attacks not requiring an attack roll. This makes it function just like it does for spells -- i.e. nice and consistent.

And yes, you can disarm a displaced opponent without a miss chance roll.

 

[VorpalStare]

The rules for total concealment say that you can "attack into a square" that you think your target occupies, not attack the square itself. The target of the attack is the same, concealment or not, and is equally valid. There is just an extra 50% miss chance because you might swing in the wrong direction.

 

[reveal]

Here's the way I would rule it: Damn the rules. Ya, you heard me.

Seriously, there are two people now, 2 feet away from each other. You gotta make the choice which one you Bull Rush. You pick the wrong one, you miss, simple as that.

 

[VorpalStare]

Concealment miss chance doesn't apply if there is no attack roll.

Now, I'll see if I can back that up with actual rules quotes.

I think I found the reference(s) you're looking for:

from the PHB p. 314:

total concealment: Attacks against a target with total concealment have a 50% miss chance. Total concealment blocks line of sight. See concealment.

from the PHB p. 306:

concealment: Something that prevents an attacker from clearly seeing his or her target. Concealment creates a chance that an otherwise successful attack misses (a miss chance).

from the PHB p. 310:

miss chance: The possiblity that a successful attack roll misses anyway because of the attacker's uncertainty about the target's location. See concealment.
miss chance roll: A d% roll to determine the success of an attack roll to which a miss chance applies.

Putting this all together, you come to the (tenuous) conclusion that a miss chance (game term) only applies to an attack roll, and therefore does not apply if there is no attack roll.

All this aside, I'd go with reveal's view and rule zero this so that any attack (with or without an attack roll) has a chance to miss, 50% in this case. That follows the intent of the spell, and makes a lot more sense.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Seriously, there are two people now, 2 feet away from each other. You gotta make the choice which one you Bull Rush. You pick the wrong one, you miss, simple as that.

Except that's not how displacement works.

Displacement is, "I'm standing here, but I look like I'm two feet that way."

Someone who is bull rushing you can, in all likelihood, cover a 4' diameter circle with their arms, meaning that if they bull rush where you seem to be, they'll at least touch you.

I would, however, rule like you did in the event someone was bull-rushing something under the effects of mirror image.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Putting this all together, you come to the (tenuous) conclusion

I'd say it's a little stronger than tenuous. Miss chances only apply to attack rolls (and, more specifically, they only apply to successful attack rolls).

EDIT: But thanks for looking that up for me!

 

[werk]

You're attacking with a hold person spell, too, are you not?

I say no. It's the difference between a target and an opponent. Use magic missle instead of hold person, same mechanics. A MM will hit him, no problem, where a polar ray would get the miss chance since it is a ranged attack.

I guess I don't see a reason to allow a rules loophole exploit when I can easily close that loophole by disallowing no-attack-roll attacks against totally concealed opponents.

.02 out

 

[thebitdnd]

I would, however, rule like you did in the event someone was bull-rushing something under the effects of mirror image.

I agree, but that then raises the question (at least to me) of how to resolve the failed bull rush. Per the rules, an attacker who fails to beat the defenders opposed check is forced to go back to the square he entered from (since he had to occupy the defenders square). If he fails because of a 50% miss chance, to me that says he caught nothing but air or just clipped the guy. Does he move back to the square he entered from or does he continue in a straight path (i.e. 5' beyond the defender)?

Furthermore, if he would have beaten the defender by 5 or 10 on the opposed check but failed the 50% miss chance, does he have the option of moving 10 or more feet past the defender?

I'd probably rule he gets shunted back to the square he entered from, but it just doesn't jive well with me being that the guy failed because of a miss chance. The attacker met with little to no physical resistence so it seems more appropriate (if you look at it from a realistic vantage point, which is dangerous ground in a fantasty game, I know) that he would go past the defender.

Thoughts?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What I'd do is let him enter the square of his target, provoking AoOs as normal, and then determine whether or not he's got a valid target.

If the target's a mirror image, it pops.* The bull-rusher may elect to continue along his line of advance, up to his normal movement (if a move / standard combination) or up to double his movement (if a charging bull rush).

If the target's real, resolve as normal.

EDIT: * - OK, maybe it pops. Maybe it doesn't. I'm undecided.