Can 4e Immortals Handbook stuff match 3e IH stuff?

[Deinos]

This may sound like edition wars... it isn't. I greatly enjoy both running 3e and playing 4e.

However, I gotta ask... is it really possible that 4th edition IH stuff will be able to be as enjoyable as 3e?

Here's the reason I ask. 4e has epic rules for playable demigods and gods as opponents, 3e doesn't. 3e only had rules for epic play in the same sense becoming a hobo is a retirement plan. So 3e was a game that was about 20 levels long, or less so if you had too few or too many powergamers.

So Immortals Handbook comes along, and really turns 3e, a game I had previously abandoned, into a whole new game, one that is quite solid for a very long time. (And not to mention puts malboros on steroids into the game)

Now... 4e... already has rules for epic levels, playing as a demigod, and fighting gods (other than "someone uses Mastery of Life and Death on you from 9001 parsecs away. You die). Which, you know, is good, of course.

But it does mean IH 4e, therefore, inherently has less to offer its respective edition than IH 3e did. I know I have made it to level 30 in 3rd edition and thinking not much changed other than having to buy all my old feats over again, but has anyone made it to level 30 in 4e and thought his character still had room to grow?

of course I'll still BUY such things, but I don't see it having as much of a need as in the prior edition.

 

[paradox42]

Having run a campaign using Epic rules, IH, and various house rules well beyond 30th level, under 3.X, I think I can reasonably say that you're being too hard on 3.X's Epic rules. It's true that they were tacked on, but when given the chance to work they really did offer something fun to play (at least for a while). It's true that one gets bored of the same flavor after a long time, which is part of the reason the 3.X Epic stuff doesn't really continue to work at ultra-high levels, but that's precisely why my group used the IH and our own house rules- to extend the window. And we got quite a campaign out of it, even if we had to go through some sessions which turned into nothing but rules wrangling to get there.

4E, to my view, made the tiers too similar to each other to be interesting- but it does offer a clear and obvious delineation of plots vs. level that let DMs and players know when it's time to change. Since none of us except Krust have seen his 4th Edition rules in more than the most cursory sense, we'll really just have to wait and see.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Deinos!

This may sound like edition wars... it isn't. I greatly enjoy both running 3e and playing 4e.

However, I gotta ask... is it really possible that 4th edition IH stuff will be able to be as enjoyable as 3e?

Well lets wait until the resident idiot in charge actually gets some 4E books finished.

Here's the reason I ask. 4e has epic rules for playable demigods and gods as opponents, 3e doesn't. 3e only had rules for epic play in the same sense becoming a hobo is a retirement plan. So 3e was a game that was about 20 levels long, or less so if you had too few or too many powergamers.

As I recall, 3E had an epic book and certainly books featuring gods.

So Immortals Handbook comes along, and really turns 3e, a game I had previously abandoned, into a whole new game, one that is quite solid for a very long time. (And not to mention puts malboros on steroids into the game)

Well I think it was playable up to a certain point, I am not convinced exactly how 'solid' it was.

Now... 4e... already has rules for epic levels, playing as a demigod, and fighting gods (other than "someone uses Mastery of Life and Death on you from 9001 parsecs away. You die). Which, you know, is good, of course.

Luckily we can fix the mistakes of 3E.

But it does mean IH 4e, therefore, inherently has less to offer its respective edition than IH 3e did. I know I have made it to level 30 in 3rd edition and thinking not much changed other than having to buy all my old feats over again, but has anyone made it to level 30 in 4e and thought his character still had room to grow?

Thats an interesting point, not sure I agree though. What you have to remember is that playing a demigod in 4E is borderline meaningless in campaign terms. You could change the title of the demigod epic destiny to Betelguesian Hornswaggler and it would make no difference.

So I think marrying the 3E IH Event rules and quintessence in general is one step forward.

However, as regards the 4E IH rules themselves, I think they may be even more important for ultra-high level play in 4E than they were to 3E. Since 4E is capped at Level 30, you don't really get to play as a deity. I think there is a lot of stuff I am trying to introduce to 4E that the current rules just don't accomodate - Mega-monsters*, Battling Legions etc.

*It will be interesting to see how they handle the planet sized monster in Monster Manual 3. Its listed as Gargantuan (from what I have heard). You can (eventually) compare it to my planet sized monsters and we'll see whats what.

of course I'll still BUY such things, but I don't see it having as much of a need as in the prior edition.

I appreciate the love dude, undeserved as it is.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox42 mate!

4E, to my view, made the tiers too similar to each other to be interesting- but it does offer a clear and obvious delineation of plots vs. level that let DMs and players know when it's time to change. Since none of us except Krust have seen his 4th Edition rules in more than the most cursory sense, we'll really just have to wait and see.

Thats one of the keys for me, making each tier feel different and offer something new. Tricky, but I think do-able.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

To me, it seems like it'd really be easy to increase in power such that demogorgon and orcus and so on are no longer challenges - they're only a few levels beyond 30, and can be taken on by a rested, ready party of such characters!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there dammitbiscuit!

To me, it seems like it'd really be easy to increase in power such that demogorgon and orcus and so on are no longer challenges - they're only a few levels beyond 30, and can be taken on by a rested, ready party of such characters!

4th Edition works best within a 5 Level parameter (don't have enemies more or less than 5 levels different to your party).

You could argue that certain experienced parties could probably move the goalposts +1 level per additional tier.

So a Level 30 party should have an enemy span of Levels 27 (minimum) to 37 (maximum).

One of the quirks of 4E is that the PCs are by default Elite themselves just because they are PCs. So its not exactly a level playing field.

Thats why PCs can take on Lesser Gods like Orcus and Demogorgon and win even though they are 15 levels lower (effectively - when you take the -9 from being a solo monster).

So if Level 30 PCs can defeat Lesser Gods, Level 35 could take on Greater Gods, Level 40 Elder Ones and so on.