D&D General Forgotten Realms geographic changes.

[LordBP]

It was like painting yourself into a corner. Still to this second, I want a good Waterdeep map. 2E was close but then TSR shaped it (insert expletive) here) a bag of balls. But Volos Guide to Waterdeep was good. I always pictured Volo like Clark Griswold.

Could take the online scans and have it printed off to a smaller format if you wanted something more usable.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Interesting perspective here from Greenwood, bold added:

Origins (III): A Real-World Correlation. Fans of the Forgotten Realms may be surprised to learn that the world didn't originally use real-world cultures as the inspiration for its countries. One of Ed Greenwood's long-time players says that his setting was inspired by "Cities and farming regions he'd visited, yes, and the 'flavours' of them he wanted to evoke, but real-world countries or peoples or cultures no."

This changed when other authors began adding their own settings to Greenwood's world, because unlike Greenwood they often used real-world cultures as a touchstone. Technically, this practice started with the Celtic-influenced culture of the Moonshae Islands, but Kara-Tur was the first big expansion in this direction. Greenwood also notes that the real-world correlations extend beyond the major additions to the world to also include "recastings of my largely-offstage kingdoms like Unther and Mulhorand to more closely resemble real-world historical (or 'Hollywood historical') settings."

Greenwood disagrees with the results, saying that "the too-close-to-our-real-world additions like Maztica, the Hordelands, and Kara-Tur were a mistake in style". He thought that they "[pulled] gamers out of roleplaying into disputes about historical details, for one thing".

However, even after decades of additions, the core of the Realms remains Greenwood's own. His primordial lands like the Sword Coast, the Heartlands, and the Dalelands have no direct real-world correlations.

I have more than one gamer buddy from back in the old days that loved historical fiction and historical miniatures war games so much that they wanted the real-world cultural corollaries to exist in D&D. They wanted to use their miniatures, and real world historical insights and expertise to matter in D&D.

Some people want medieval knights templar/crusade armies to exist in their D&D stories.
Some people are fascinated with the Spanish conquistadors, as they have cool armor and helms, and are a good source of strife.
Some people love medieval Japan and want their D&D to include samurai and the bushido code.
One person I know loves the ideas of a highland culture that embraces kilts and bagpipes.

I believe that early FR had designers that wanted these things. All of this thinking led to the FR becoming a kitchen sink world.

I loved FR growing up, and it actually made me more aware of these types of cultures that I normally would not have been exposed to outside the fantasy context. Radiant Citadel is doing the same for me, and I really like the cultural differences represented there.

That said, I do prefer when they include unique fantastical spins on those cultures.

 

[Parmandur]

I have more than one gamer buddy from back in the old days that loved historical fiction and historical miniatures war games so much that they wanted the real-world cultural corollaries to exist in D&D. They wanted to use their miniatures, and real world historical insights and expertise to matter in D&D.

Some people want medieval knights templar/crusade armies to exist in their D&D stories.
Some people are fascinated with the Spanish conquistadors, as they have cool armor and helms, and are a good source of strife.
Some people love medieval Japan and want their D&D to include samurai and the bushido code.
One person I know loves the ideas of a highland culture that embraces kilts and bagpipes.

I believe that early FR had designers that wanted these things. All of this thinking led to the FR becoming a kitchen sink world.

I loved FR growing up, and it actually made me more aware of these types of cultures that I normally would not have been exposed to outside the fantasy context. Radiant Citadel is doing the same for me, and I really like the cultural differences represented there.

That said, I do prefer when they include unique fantastical spins on those cultures.

The motivation is understandable, but it just didn't fit for the Forgotten Realms.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

The motivation is understandable, but it just didn't fit for the Forgotten Realms.

Agreed. I really don't like the real-world connections of the FR, where they were the realms that were once connected to, and forgotten by Earth. I don't like the Wizards Three being connected to the real world, for instance. Or the entire Mulhorand/Unther connection to their Earth counterparts (Egyptian and Sumerian mythos).

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Agreed. I really don't like the real-world connections of the FR, where they were the realms that were once connected to, and forgotten by Earth. I don't like the Wizards Three being connected to the real world, for instance. Or the entire Mulhorand/Unther connection to their Earth counterparts (Egyptian and Sumerian mythos).

I wonder if there is a stronger correlation between those who loved the old school Deities and Demigods sourcebook from the 80s, and the use of Earth deities in D&D settings.

 

[Parmandur]

I wonder if there is a stronger correlation between those who loved the old school Deities and Demigods sourcebook from the 80s, and the use of Earth deities in D&D settings.

I don't even dislike the idea in a D&D Setting per se: it just isn't what Ed Greenwood was cooking originally, and sits awkwardly with the core Realms.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I don't even dislike the idea in a D&D Setting per se: it just isn't what Ed Greenwood was cooking originally, and sits awkwardly with the core Realms.

I'm not an originalist. I only care if it is a good idea that fits. But that's hard to do when there are dozens of designers over decades changing the setting because they think they know better how it should change.

For instance, Greyhawk's origins are based on puns, silly sounding anagrams of players' names, and plays on words. If you want a goofy setting, make it a goofy setting. Want a serious setting? Don't name a character "Melf" because he was a male elf, or name a character Drawmij became it's Jim Ward's name backwards. Here is a link to such examples from Greyhawk: Gygax's Greyhawk Anagrams, Puns, and Homages

Another example is that I love Salvatore's work in FR, but there should never have been a character named Dagnabbit. I also am not fond of Cadderly's weaponized yoyo (I mean "spindle disks") and flashlight. All three of these concepts are real world anachronisms that take me out of the feel of the story.

 

[Parmandur]

For instance, Greyhawk's origins are based on puns, silly sounding anagrams of players' names, and plays on words. If you want a goofy setting, make it a goofy setting. Want a serious setting? Don't name a character "Melf" because he was a male elf, or name a character Drawmij became it's Jim Ward's name backwards. Here is a link to such examples from Greyhawk: Gygax's Greyhawk Anagrams, Puns, and Homages

And that serious-silliness is what makes Greyhawk great.

 

[dead]

My point was more about folks who were being stickers for exact story canon, but fine with handwaving millions of square miles without explanation. Handwavg who is the Open Lord of Wateedeep seems less jarring to me than a subtracting a metric Australia from the Sword Coast region.

I don’t see a contradiction in this instance. To sticklers of canon, yes, what’s happening with the Open Lord of Waterdeep in the published Realms is way more important. And, yes, they would hand-wave the contraction/expansion of the map as they understand that doesn’t make for a good story at all - it’s completely farcical to apply an in-universe explanation. The Realms maps have changed on a number of occasions through its history. The reference to it in SCAG is, thankfully, explained as “rumors spread" and "stories circulated" so could be written off as Kender tales - empowering the GM to take it or leave it. Technically, I don’t really see it as having made its way into the fiction. But, even if it were crystal clear that it did happen in the fiction, I don’t think sticklers of canon would find they have to use it if they didn’t like it - they are welcome to do their own thing.

I mean, the 3E FRCS is even more explicit about this, thst all "facts" about the Forgotten Realms are fungible DM tools to use, not use, radically twist, etc. as needed by the game.

It’s always been this way. Even sticklers of canon may run their games completely different to the published Realms. But it doesn’t mean they still don't like to keep up with events in the published setting - even if they don’t agree with all the design choices made.

 

[R_J_K75]

Could take the online scans and have it printed off to a smaller format if you wanted something more usable.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad product just presented poorly as it's not easy to use at the table. It's more of a DM tool than anything. It has many redeeming qualities too as does Cities of Mystery. For one, it has the Roaringhorn Estate detailed. I recall a night my players went carousing in Waterdeeep and ended up there. The hazing for newbies to the estate was to chug a mug of Dwaeven Fire Ale and jump off the balcony into the yard below then run back up and chug another ale. One player puffs out his chest, "I'll do it", fails his poison saving throw. The partygoers throw him off the balcony and at this point the players got the bubble guts, it's about to come out of both ends. I tell him his PC has to go, gotta go. gotta go right now....what do you do? He drops trow and does the old hut, hut, hike on the Roaringhorns front lawn. Spontaneous pick-up sessions like that one were always the best. So honestly, I got some use out of that boxed set.