Can DnD ever approximate the heroic literature?

Darkness

Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
What dragons in literature made traps so that it didn't have to fight, cast spells from afar, and generally acted as if they were guerrillas rather than fearsome beasts of destruction? A dragon should be proud to fight claw-to-hand, should rejoice in tearing apart its enemy with its massive jaws, and generally should not have resort to underhanded stragems to win.
The tarrasque is more what you'd imagine a dragon to be, hm? As it should be - it is a dragon, mythically speaking.


As for your main point: Ever thought about playing Exalted? :D It has the mood that you are looking for, at least... :cool:
 

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hong

WotC's bitch
Wuxia said:

What you call "reasonable" I call "realistic": we've been talking tactics, and ganging on someone is a realistic tactic, not a heroic one.

I really don't know why you believe that "realistic" must be at odds with "heroic". In _The Return of the King_, Eowyn and Merry ganged up on the Witch-King and killed him that way. In the Appendices of the book, it's mentioned how King Earnur was challenged by the same Witch-King to face him in Minas Morgul. Earnur paid the price of his folly, and was never seen again.

Furthermore, D&D is, in the end, a game about cooperation. Each character contributes an equal share to overcoming challenges, and gets an equal amount of spotlight time. Sometimes, that means everyone gets a kick at the big bad guy. The situation is different in a legend or folktale, where usually one character is the focus of the story, and everyone else is his backup. This is fine for literature, but not for a game.


Basically, rolling very low (below 5, IIRC) on both his Move Silently and Hide checks, then being attacked by critters that rolled a series of 18, 19 and 20 in the very first round. And the leader completely maxed out damage, too. It was in a small tunnel (my PC was a halfling) filled with water and only the party gnome could have saved him, but did not try, even when the critters given up the chase. My halfling's body was unconscious, carried by the stream, and finally died like that.

It sounds like your fellow players simply aren't very heroic, regardless of what ruleset you're using.


The party advised that we came back with the city guards, to crush the baddies under sheer number. Easy victory, realistic way to fight. They were right.

Again, that's not a problem with D&D as such, as with the design of the campaign and the adventure. It doesn't really matter which system you use; strength of numbers is usually an advantage, all other things being equal. In this situation, the questions to ask are:

- why was the party able to call on the resources of the city guards?
- why are the guards strong enough face the challenges of the bad guys?
- why are the bad guys in a place where the guards can come down and fight them?

All of these questions have to do with how your DM designed the adventure. Personally, I don't think any adventure where the PCs have the option of calling on big brother to help them out is that great -- it cheapens the PCs' contributions and results in questions being asked as to why they're necessary at all.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Wolfspider said:
Jackcarter, you make some great points. I really can't argue with any of them. I've thought that way myself concerning dragons and Rainbow Six style parties and the like....

If you play dragons stupid, there won't be any need for Rainbow Six-style tactics....
 



Tsyr

Explorer
Exalted: Heroic Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, Chinese Martial Arts Flicks, the best of mystic style Anime (Kenshin, Hakenden, Lodoss, etc), and some dang cool mythology all rolled up into one nice little roleplaying package. I'm hooked.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Tsyr said:
Exalted: Heroic Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, Chinese Martial Arts Flicks, the best of mystic style Anime (Kenshin, Hakenden, Lodoss, etc), and some dang cool mythology all rolled up into one nice little roleplaying package. I'm hooked.

So all we need now is a d20 Exalted. ;)
 

Tsyr

Explorer
Oh good god no.

Like Shadowrun, Feng Shui (Crossover rules aside), and BESM, trying to d20 Exalted would destroy it.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Tsyr said:
Oh good god no.

Like Shadowrun, Feng Shui (Crossover rules aside), and BESM, trying to d20 Exalted would destroy it.

Ye of little faith.

Actually, some of the stuff in the ELH could come in handy for doing Exalted-level characters, I think.
 

Wuxia

First Post
Right on target!

clockworkjoe said:
When you play D&D, the dice discard the best laid plans of mice and men.

Not a nice thing to say to a player whose halfling has been killed by a wererat. :mad:
 

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