D&D 5E Can mundane classes have a resource which powers abilities?

[Ahnehnois]

The Fighter's problem's been is that it's completely generic to the point where it has no identity of it's own and, as you helpfully demonstrated, any unique feature it does get is taken away to be handed out to everyone else.

Which is not a problem! That's what makes the fighter work; it isn't very specific. That's also true of the other members of the "big four". Wizards comprise everything from blasters to summoners to sages to generalists. Clerics are really a function of what they're worshipping. Rogues are as generic as it gets.

They represent the best of a class system. They're not straitjackets that the player is forced into, but helpful guides as to making a coherent character.

The next step in D&D design will be when everyone's unique features are taken and handed out to everyone else. Why just talk about "mundanes"? The real question is what happens when some barbarian warlord who's venerated Gruumsh for his entire life makes a sacrifice and prays for help. At the moment the answer is "nothing" or the DM making something up. What we need is a set of rules for divine power that aren't tied to class, and then a cleric that gets off to a head start on utilizing them. Same thing for a rogue trained in ancient languages who starts reading ancient texts. Use Magic Device has been around for a while in some form; letting people try to actually cast wizard spells is hardly unprecedented.

The real progress will be when a level 1 cleric's main ability is that he gets +2 to prayer checks and access to Cure Light Wounds for free, a level 1 fighter gets +2 to attacks with one weapon group and a free combo maneuver, and a rogue just gets a bunch of extra skills.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Which is not a problem! That's what makes the fighter work; it isn't very specific.

Generic to the point that it's only selling point is "It has more feats, which are things literally everyone else gets."

Oh, and more attacks, which is also boring.

 

[ExploderWizard]

So the fighter being able to exhaust their ability to do their more difficult manoeuvres, rather than being an untiring juggernaut who can attack at full strength continuously, makes them more like a superhero?

Interesting.

Fatigue would need to apply to ALL characters exerting themselves whether in combat or otherwise. I can't see a wizard force marching through the mountains all day without being fatigued but a fighter throwing a hadoken punch suddenly becoming so.

Then, how do you track it? What is the recovery rate? Hit points are partially represented by stamina so does this mean that physical exertion does hp damage?

If not, then we are left with a pool of "hit points light" to tally fatigue. Now there are two pools of resource points with varying refresh rates and restoration conditions to worry about.

Man, I'll track ammo any day over that.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Generic to the point that it's only selling point is "It has more feats, which are things literally everyone else gets."

I don't think the reason to play a character is to be able to do things that no one else could possibly do. I don't think players are that spiteful.

I operate with the assumption that in a game about imagining fantasy world, rules telling you that you can't do something are bad.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

I don't think the reason to play a character is to be able to do things that no one else could possibly do. I don't think players are that spiteful.

The problem is, there's nothing the Fighter can do that another class can't. if there's anything you want your character to do, Fighter should be the last thing you're looking at.

Again, this is all assuming 3.x, since that's my only experience with the boring as dirt "Feats: The Class" Fighter.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The problem is, there's nothing the Fighter can do that another class can't. if there's anything you want your character to do, Fighter should be the last thing you're looking at.

There are plenty of things that fighters do better than other classes. Anything involving feats, for example.

Expanding the realm of feats to include everything that various editions have made class-specific would then improve the fighter.

And if the fighter should be the last thing you're looking at, why is it so popular?

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't think the reason to play a character is to be able to do things that no one else could possibly do. I don't think players are that spiteful.

I operate with the assumption that in a game about imagining fantasy world, rules telling you that you can't do something are bad.

Yarp.

The problem is, there's nothing the Fighter can do that another class can't. if there's anything you want your character to do, Fighter should be the last thing you're looking at.

Again, this is all assuming 3.x, since that's my only experience with the boring as dirt "Feats: The Class" Fighter.

Well since 3E is the edition where the designers had the bright idea of making EVERY class good fighters all I can say to that is DUH.

If fighting is what fighters do (the name kinda gives it away) making every class really competent in this area is a good idea how?

 

[EnglishLanguage]

There are plenty of things that fighters do better than other classes.

Such as?

The only thing the 3.x Fighter has going for him is physical damage, which is the worst way to go about winning an encounter, and lots of hit points which do nothing when you inevitably fail a saving throw against a Save-or-Die effect. Anything feats can give him are typically not worth it or done much better by other classes(typically casters).

And if the fighter should be the last thing you're looking at, why is it so popular?

You're mistaking "popular" for "good".

As-is, the Fighter is popular for being an iconic(if ineffective) D&D class and because the 4e Fighter got people's hopes up by actually being a well-designed and functioning class.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Such as?

Combat maneuvers, attack and damage, AC. You know, the numbers that matter in combat.

Not that there's no room for improvement, but even by the original core rules, fighters have significant advantages. Improving their basic numbers and pushing more design elements into the feat realm and adding more robust rules to the combat chapter would all help improve the fighter without a paradigm shift from its largely successful design.

You're mistaking "popular" for "good".

No I'm not. Peruse any charop board for builds. Those first two levels of fighter are easily the most popular two levels of any class. Even people that don't like the fighter surely have to admit that it's a great dip for two or four levels before you multiclass and/or prestige. The problem is the levels where you don't get feats, not the ones where you do. Bonus feats are extremely powerful, more so than almost any of the exclusive class abilities which one might compare them to.

As-is, the Fighter is popular for being an iconic(if ineffective) D&D class and because the 4e Fighter got people's hopes up by actually being a well-designed and functioning class.

Pretty sure the 4e fighter is the single biggest mechanical element that has contributed to PF's success. The PF fighter, of course, is just like the 3e version, but with some useful bonuses instead of those pesky dead levels (and no exclusive actions or resources). Seems to be doing fine.

 

[Manbearcat]

Fatigue would need to apply to ALL characters exerting themselves whether in combat or otherwise. I can't see a wizard force marching through the mountains all day without being fatigued but a fighter throwing a hadoken punch suddenly becoming so.

Then, how do you track it? What is the recovery rate? Hit points are partially represented by stamina so does this mean that physical exertion does hp damage?

Couple things here that need some serious clarification as I see anaerobic exercise and metabolsim/endurance mistakenly conflated with aerobic exercise and metabolism/endurance regularly. What you have depicted in the first paragraph contrasts phenomena that are all but completely compartmentalized. An MMA fighter has world class anaerobic endurance but, unless he relentlessly trained his aerobic endurance in the same proportion, he would have no hope of running a marathon. The inverse is also true for a marathon runner attempting to not "gas out" in the first minute of a 5 minute combat interval.

Anaerobic exercise is short burst, high intensity activity, typically ranging from a few seconds to a few minutes, that is associated with (almost exclusively) fast twitch muscle use. The metabolic process that powers this activity releases high energy phosphates stored in limited quantity in muscles. This is because the process of aerobic metabolism (which involves the uptake of oxygen generating the energy necessary for prolonged, low-intensity exercise) is insufficient to the task of supplying the energy needed at the required rates to power the short burst, high intensity activity of anaerobic activity.

Also, anaerobic metabolism includes rapid glucose breakdown which produce lactic acid, localized muscular fatigue and/or failure (when lactate levels are really high).

Aerobic exercise is an entirely different metabolic process, requiring an entirely different training regime to improve aerobic endurance. A long distance runner is a different beast altogether than an MMA Fighter. As such, I'm entirely of the opinion that given the inherent nature of martial activity (both the metabolism/endurance and the dynamic, high intensity, burst exchanges where openings are observed, oriented, decided upon, and executed in split-seconds), it makes complete sense for a short term (encounter) based resource scheme to be in play for warriors to tactically ration and deploy. To the point, anaerobic metabolism/endurance and OODA Loop dynamics completely legitimize a short-term resource and opening/reaction system.