Can the Fighter be Real and Equal to spellcasters?

[Phasics]

The Fighter equalizer is the first strike, if a fighter can get close enough fast enough then he has at least a chance of putting down the spell caster. Another advantage is that Spell Casters for the most part would believe themselves above and more powerful than any mere mortal no matter ow well trained, arrogance could lead to toying with the fighter , and the fighter only needs a single attack, to give him sufficient time for enough followup blows to end the fight.

Two examples I can think of not very D&D but make the point.

X-Men 3
Wolverine is able to stab the demi-god Phoenix/Jean Gray , fighter beats mage because of psychological circumstances any other day he's fish food.

Another Classic example of this can be found in the anime moive SPRIGGAN

Where an elite spec ops fighter goes against a telekinetic child, the kid does a serious number on him on several occasions but the effort taxes him out allowing the fighter to finally overcome the kid in a last ditch effort. Stamina taxes out magic reserves. Arrogant kid could have killed him before but belives he was all powerful and didnt need to.


In my mind Fighter weaker than Mage on paper is fine because it is never as simple as Lv20 Fighter vs lv20 Mage ...BEGIN ! Besides what DM would use an unbeatable amge aginst a party of martial PC's ? and even if he did he'd make it possible through other means to come out with a victory or at least a stalemate.

We do not need X = Y

If this was an MMO then maybe yes we'd demand it but 4e always has the DM to ensure that X = Y does not matter and that the adventuring party will all be required and tested from time to time.

 

[WarlockLord]

Wizards in 3e have garbage defenses. A quick fighter can drop them in one hit, especially with a poisoned weapon.

P.S. Most of the "world killing spells" should be rituals. Yes, you can design a spell to blow up a planet...but you need 13 30th-level casters. Hard to find.

 

[Doug McCrae]

If this was an MMO then maybe yes we'd demand it but 4e always has the DM to ensure that X = Y does not matter and that the adventuring party will all be required and tested from time to time.

The system shouldn't be so creaky it requires the constant hand of the DM. Something as straightforward as class balance should be built in.

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D has always run with theory that all classes are equal, or at least "equally valuable." Fourth Edition will finally make a serious attempt at making that a reality.

Yeah, it's always looked to me like it's trying to be balanced but failing.

 

[Imaro]

You know, sometimes I think this allmighty "balance" between classes that are actually suppose to be and do different things is a pipe dream. I mean balance means equal and the only way I see that is with something like...where every attack or defense uses the same mechanics or does/defends the same amount of damage and you just describe it different. I mean can a true balance in a class based game be achieved without the classes being so similar in end result that really their the same with just a change of painting. Just rambling and thinking...sorry.

 

[Professor Phobos]

Model high-level fighters after Karsa Orlong or the Seguleh, I guess.

 

[Stalker0]

Two main ways you can do this:

1) Power Factor. Magics can change people's thoughts, bend reality, move huge objects. But when it comes to raw damage, to the ending of life on the battlefield, nothing beats a blade in a high level fighter's hands.

In 3.5, high level fighters do crazy damage. But compared to save or dies that's just not good enough. With those going away, a fighter's damage may be more significant to the fight.

2) Fun Factor. Fighters swing swing swing. Mages grants wishes, travel the worlds and planes, gain dominated followers, etc.

4e powers seem to be giving fighters a lot more options in combat. Fighters can stun, move people around. They might be able to do ability damage, etc. In combat, they are given more fun stuff to do.

For wizards, some of their stuff is being relegated to rituals, like teleporting. So while a wizard can do all the big fun stuff like teleport, its now a special event, as opposed to all the time.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Wizards in 3e have garbage defenses. A quick fighter can drop them in one hit, especially with a poisoned weapon.

Garbage defenses? Say what?

I think that being invisible, flying, and able to teleport (the wizard's *default* status in any sane player's hands) are plenty boffo defenses. Plus there's that pesky calling-spell issue to deal with; is a 17th-level fighter ready to take on a CR 22 solar? Dunno.

 

[Valiantheart]

WOTC seem to be making a concerted effort to make high level Fighters more like Gilgimesh and less like Conan. This is a good thing TM.

A 20+ fighter should be a tornado of butt kick. Besides just because Wizards are being balanced in combat doesnt mean they still cant do all the overpowered things they did before. They just have to do them as out of combat rituals now.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Keeping the Fighter "realistic" and still keeping him equal to a Wizard is pretty much impossible unless you radically scale back the abilities of magic. The very idea of "magic" in D&D would need to change, becoming more limited in some manner. Certainly, it is impossible so long as spells can do things that can't be countered by mundane means.

Also, keeping this balance essentially bans the game from ever becoming truly fantastic in scope.

If the Fighter is kept "realistic", and balance between Fighters and Wizards is upheld, then those characters fighting the truly impressive monsters of fantasy becomes something the challenges suspension of disbelief. How can people like that ever challenge the powerful dragons and demons of D&D?

In essence, the balance between having a realistic Fighter and a balanced Wizard is only possible at low levels. In order to match the epic scope of fantasy, something has to surpass being realistic and mundane; the characters need to rise in level and become mythic in power themselves. It is fine for the Fighter to start out realistic, but unless you want to limit the game to a very small set of literature and myth, the characters need to be able to surpass the boundaries of realism.

In the past, only the magic-using classes were able to increase in power enough to match the fantastic monsters of high-level play. Fighters could only survive by relying on the power of magic-users. Fighters were realistic at low level, but did not shed realism when the game warranted it, and tried to be realistic in the face of total absurdity. That needs to change.