Can you Counterspell a Counterspell?

[Sound of Azure]

EXAMPLES

The real chestnut here is that in the 3 person scenario, it really all comes down to the initiative order. Target and Apprentice both HAVE to go before Master, otherwise the whole thing is shot to hell. Apprentice doesn't necessarily have to go before Target, but he does have to go before Target has had a chance to cash in his readied action.

That helps a lot, thanks.

It looks like I misread Reactive Counterspell to "burn up" your actions for one round , not the actions you take in your next turn.

EDIT: Turns out my friend is planning on taking on some kind of Black Dragon Archmage in another guy's epic game with his epic-level wizard and his apprentice/s, and wanted to check up on his tactics.

Yikes!

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

What is "Reactive Counterspell"?

And give me the exact rules text please; I haven't heard this one.

 

[Sound of Azure]

I'm not sure if it's ok to put the text up, so I'll err on the side of caution and not do so.

The gist is that you get the ability to Counterspell once per round at any time (essentially as an immediate action in more recent rules parlance), provided you are not flat-footed. If you Counterspell in this fashion, you lose your actions on the following round, so there's a cost.

The version I'm looking at can be found in the Player's Guide to Faerun, on page 42. It may have been updated in a more recent product however, such as Complete Mage or the Spell Compendium.

 

[Sejs]

Sound pretty much nailed it.

It's a feat. Requires both Improved Initiative and Improved Counterspell.

It essentially removes the "must have a currently readied action to counterspell" requirement for counterspelling, but with the cost of your next available standard action, either this round (if you use it before your turn comes up) or next round (if after). So basically you can get sort of a 'cash advance' on your action, but only if you use it in a certain way. Oh, and you can't do it while flat-footed.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Ok - as I said, I have never heard of this thing before... and I don't know if it is in the official WOTC SRD anywhere.

The thing is, I don't think you need the ability in the 64k scenario with the provision you HAVE a quickened spell, because it is already your turn in the initiative sequence.

Reactive counterspell lets you act in the OTHER guy's turn as I understand it without having a readied action, provided you pay the cost.

Why Counterspell?

To make up for the lack of the original caster being readied to counterspell.

 

[Sejs]

Technically... officially... No, you can't counterspell just by virtue of having a quickened spell. Mostly because counterspelling is a particular type of action, above and beyond just tossing out another spell.


What you most likely could do with that quickened spell, though, is try to disrupt the other guy's casting by dealing damage and forcing him to make a concentration check, stunning him, silencing him, etc.

 

[Raspen]

if i where GM i wouldnt let someone who is casting a spell counterspell the counterspell. dispite the fact the spell is quickend it still has componants such as verbal and what that is telling me is your dubble talking.

i might consider it if the spells had diffrent componants like one was jesters and one was speach but even then it would be a crazy constration cheack.

 

[Arkhandus]

I would consider making a counterspell, during your own spellcasting or counterspelling a different spell, to be interrupting your spell to do so. Because that's what it is. And normally, if a spell is interrupted in casting, it fizzles. So no dice.

I just don't see how you could pause your spellcasting routine to invoke a counterspell or whatever, and then continue your spell where it left off. If it worked like that, then you'd never lose a spell for getting hit during the casting; you'd just stop the incantation/motions/whatever for a second when the enemy takes a swing at you, and resume chanting/twiddling fingers as soon as the blow had landed or whiffed. So no way Jose.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Technically... officially... No, you can't counterspell just by virtue of having a quickened spell. Mostly because counterspelling is a particular type of action, above and beyond just tossing out another spell.


What you most likely could do with that quickened spell, though, is try to disrupt the other guy's casting by dealing damage and forcing him to make a concentration check, stunning him, silencing him, etc.

If you could do the one - you could do the other. The whole reason counterspelling is its own "set" of actions is that counterspelling must happen in reaction. Unfortunately, D&D lacks a clean "stack" system - like Magic the Gathering.

if i where GM i wouldnt let someone who is casting a spell counterspell the counterspell. dispite the fact the spell is quickend it still has componants such as verbal and what that is telling me is your dubble talking.

i might consider it if the spells had diffrent componants like one was jesters and one was speach but even then it would be a crazy constration cheack.

There is a Monster in one of the WOTC MM that has 6 arms and some kind of prismatic disc that can cast up to 6 spells "simultaneously" IIRC - looking for the references.

I would consider making a counterspell, during your own spellcasting or counterspelling a different spell, to be interrupting your spell to do so. Because that's what it is. And normally, if a spell is interrupted in casting, it fizzles. So no dice.

No, I am just trying to do two things simultaneously, one of which only takes me a "negligible" amount of time.

The "interruption" argument seems to be the ONLY thing I can come up with as a negative answer to the 64K question. The thing is, there isn't any hard rules support either way that I can find.

 

[moritheil]

If you could do the one - you could do the other. The whole reason counterspelling is its own "set" of actions is that counterspelling must happen in reaction.

I must disagree strongly in terms of what the RAW states. You must ready an action to counterspell. Quicken does not get around that fact.

There is a Monster in one of the WOTC MM that has 6 arms and some kind of prismatic disc that can cast up to 6 spells "simultaneously" IIRC - looking for the references.

Spellweaver.

The "interruption" argument seems to be the ONLY thing I can come up with as a negative answer to the 64K question. The thing is, there isn't any hard rules support either way that I can find.

Readying to Counterspell

You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

Nothing in the rules talks about counterspelling without readying an action. It is not supported in the rules.