Can you Counterspell a Counterspell?

[Gerion of Mercadia]

You are missing the point here. Counterspell is, inherently, a REACTION. Under the D&D combat system, a reaction occurs on the "other" guys turn most of the time. In the 64k question however, it isn't the "other guy's turn" - it's MINE.

Note that your own quote says you MAY not MUST.

The main reason you can't "counterspell without a readied action" is that under ordinary circumstances, the other guy isn't casting a spell on YOUR turn - only on HIS. As a General Maxim, if it isn't your turn in the initiative order you cannot take an action unless the OTHER guy does something that entitles you to a Reaction, such as provoke an AoO.

As Written - "Reactive Counterspell" not only allows you to act on the OTHER guy's turn, but also allows you to do so with a "Standard" action. It entitles you to a SPECIAL reaction, for a cost.

In the 64k question, It is MY turn, so I am inherently already around barrier #1 of counterspelling. I get around barrier #2, not having a standard action "available" by having the dispel magic quickened. It's My turn, so I am the ONLY character allowed to "declare actions" - or translated into more rules terms... I HAVE THE INITIATIVE.

My answer to attempting to use a quickened spell to attempt a counterspell without a readied action is:
No, it isn't your turn in the initiative order.

As opposed to:
No, you require a readied action to Counterspell.


btw - thx for the Monster lookup; very much appreciated.

 

[Arkhandus]

Spellweaver is in Monster Manual II. And it's Spellweaving ability is a racial trait, which is why it can cast multiple spells simultaneously.

Since the rules aren't clear on the counterspell question, considering that Reactive Counterspell and such aren't core so they weren't considered in the core rules, it's purely a matter of DM choice and whatever common sense he or she chooses to use in the decision.

The only precedent in the rules for the 'interruption' argument is for spells with a long casting time, and it's iffy how it may pertain to this non-core feat I'm unfamiliar with. Probably irrelevant to it, but since it's a non-core feat and thus got precious little consideration before they shoved it out to print (as WotC always does, sadly), there's no other core rules precedence for my argument or any other against this wierd counterspelling thing.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Thanks everyone, that's some good food for thought. I really appreciate the input and thought you all put in.

I don't usually bother with counterspelling anyway, so my friend's query caught me off guard, haha. Both he and the DM who runs the epic game are Wizard-playing fanatics, so I'm surprised they didn't know the answer.

Thanks again, all!

 

[billd91]

I would only allow someone to counter a dispel magic, I think. In most other circumstances, I see the spell being used as a counter is cast in a fundamentally different way, using some element of the structure of spells to deconstruct the energy amassed by the initial spell. Since dispel magic is actually being cast normally, that's the only one I would allow someone else to counter.
I suppose any other spells cast normally that counter spells (slow to counter haste) could also be counterable. But I wouldn't allow someone to counter someone counter a fireball with a fireball.

 

[moritheil]

You are missing the point here. Counterspell is, inherently, a REACTION. Under the D&D combat system, a reaction occurs on the "other" guys turn most of the time. In the 64k question however, it isn't the "other guy's turn" - it's MINE.

That doesn't matter, though, because there is no section of the rules that allows you to counterspell during your own turn. You're strictly in house rule territory here. Now, it's fine for you to make that your house rule, but you should also acknowledge that a lot of DMs may not agree with that.

Note that your own quote says you MAY not MUST.

There are many abilities that say you may do X if you do Y first. That doesn't mean that you can ignore their requirements and do X anyway.

The main reason you can't "counterspell without a readied action" is that under ordinary circumstances, the other guy isn't casting a spell on YOUR turn - only on HIS. As a General Maxim, if it isn't your turn in the initiative order you cannot take an action unless the OTHER guy does something that entitles you to a Reaction, such as provoke an AoO.

I disagree, and I challenge you to find a part of the rules that says this.

btw - thx for the Monster lookup; very much appreciated.

No problem.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Quote:
The main reason you can't "counterspell without a readied action" is that under ordinary circumstances, the other guy isn't casting a spell on YOUR turn - only on HIS. As a General Maxim, if it isn't your turn in the initiative order you cannot take an action unless the OTHER guy does something that entitles you to a Reaction, such as provoke an AoO.



I disagree, and I challenge you to find a part of the rules that says this.


Pg 135: Combat Basics Summary.

Rounds:
Combat occurs in rounds. In every round, each combatant gets to do something. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world.

Initiative:
Before the first round, each player makes an initiative check for his or her character. The DM makes initiative checks for the opponents. Characters act in order from highest initiative result to lowest, with the check applying to all rounds of combat.

Actions:
Every Round, on your character's turn, you may take a standard action and a move action, two move actions, or one full-round action. You may also perform one or more free actions along with any other action (caveat below)

and on page 137 PHB, second to last paragraph

An attack of Opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity.

The caveat of how many "free" actions you can take is a DM case by case call, and this is what the DM's permission is intended to refer to.

Challenge Met.

 

[javcs]

Challenge Met.

More like challenge sidestepped. Nothing you quoted actually supported your position or refuted moritheil's position.

Especially since if an action was readied to counterspell, then, in the action of counterspelling it is not your turn, but the other guy's action.

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

Bold and Italics I added to emphasize the key portions. They're fairly straightforward and self-explanatory in proving my point.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

The 64k question however, is if you have a quickened dispel magic available - can the primary wizard (not the apprentice) use this against his opponent's counterspell?

Especially since if an action was readied to counterspell, then, in the action of counterspelling it is not your turn, but the other guy's action.

I think you missed the question I was responding to.

Primary Wizard is attemting Spell.
Opponent is using readied action to counterspell. (acting on MY turn by readied action)
Can I declare a Free Action Quickened Dispel Magic - targeting His Counterspell?

The line reading:
You may also perform one or more free actions along with any other action
Already had that covered.

1. Primary wizard has declared casting a spell.
2. This set off Opposing wizard's "readied action" - Which is the ONLY action He can take, as It isn't His turn, he is interrupting Mine.
3. Can the Apprentice "interrupt" the Opposing Wizard? Yes, If he also has a readied action
4. Can the Primary wizard use a Quickened Dispel Magic? debatable

Points For 64k q:
- it's His turn (or moment in initiative), which is not the same as his "action"
- He has to declare a quickened spell, because He has (presumably) already used His standard action spell.
- He has't actually BEGUN his own standard action thanks to the rules of readied actions...
- Dispel Magic is explicitly listed as an "exception" and not a "true counterspell" under it's own rules.

 

[javcs]

My point was that while he is taking his readied action to counterspell, the original caster cannot use a quickened spell in response without reactive counterspell, as you can take free/swift actions (depending on which version of quicken you use) only during your set of actions in a round (turn) and while it is the readied action, it is not your turn/action at that instant, but the action of the person who readied an action to counterspell, and therefore you cannot use a quickened spell to attempt a counterspell.

Would you permit someone to use their standard action to counterspell a counterspell of a quickened spell or one of the swift spell variants?

 

[ThirdWizard]

*blink blink*

You can't counterspell a counterspell because you can only counter a spell.