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Can you do a "diamond" shaped blast?

Ziana

First Post
KarinsDad said:
Note: the rest of your post there is irrelevant. None of it is according to the rules. The rules do not limit a diagonal dimension of a blast area to 3, it limits the sides to 3.
In a 3 square by 3 square figure, how can you have more squares on the diagonal than across?

The rules do not limit the number of squares within the area. You are grasping at non-rules straws in a RAW discussion.

The diamond figure consists of the 3x3 square with additional squares added to the exterior. Where do the rules say to do this?

What is the maximum number of minions that can be killed by a 10 x 10 blast?
 

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silentounce

First Post
Ziana said:
I maintain as I did before this sort of behavior is only harmful to the rpg community at large. New players deserve simple, straightforward answers.

So, just ignore them. It's just like being teased as a child, the more you it effect you, the more they're just going to continue. I'm pretty sure both sides have had their points made over and over again in this thread. And I'm sure that all the RAW people in here know that the intent is for a blast to only effect x^2 squares in a square shape. But the rules DO NOT say that. So, RAW, the guys you are arguing with are right. I'm sorry if you don't like that fact, but it's true. Most of this thread is just argument for argument's sake, and they've won. And until an errata comes out on this issue, which will probably never happen, no amount of typing on your account is going to change that. Please, save yourself the headache and move on.
 

drachasor

First Post
KarinsDad said:
So according to the RULES, the following are all legal 3x3 blasts:

Code:
. . . . .
. x x x .
. x x x .
. x x x .
. . . . .

. . . . .
. . x . .
. x x x .
x x x x x
. x x x .
. . x . .
. . . . .

. . . . .
x x x . .
. x x x .
. . x x x
. . . . .

The blast does not have to be square.

The blast area does need to be filled.

The sides of the blast have to consist of squares.

The blast has to be adjacent to the origin square.


According to designer intent, it would seem that only the first blast illustrated here is legal.


That appears to pretty much sum it up unless I am missing something. I didn't see any rules listed that contradict this, just a bunch of opinions to the contrary.

I'd say only the first follows RAW. The 2nd is overpowered and abuses the spirit of the rules (and it is against the rules themselves). The third, however, is the same amount of area as the first, is a more fair representation of a rotated square regarding area, and is good enough to be in line with the spirit of the rules. Since I plan on starting a campaign, I am definitely going to to think about allowing that (but I'd probably make it so that blasts using #3 would have to touch share a side with the user's own square, not just a corner).
 

Ziana

First Post
silentounce said:
But the rules DO NOT say that. So, RAW, the guys you are arguing with are right.
No, the rules don't say that a blast can be anything but square. Insisting it can be otherwise is what is ignoring the rules and making stuff up.

Page 272. Square blasts. There's no other examples. Now we know how to do blasts, according to the rules. Thanks, Wizards, for the helpful diagrams!
And until an errata comes out on this issue, which will probably never happen
Right, there is no need for errata because there is no error or omission. The rules are clear. "3x3, here's pictures of two squares showing you what we mean. "
 
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Obryn

Hero
KarinsDad said:
Draw a picture. Your text was unclear.
Can't draw it with text, of course.

But...

(1) A wall is so-and-so numbers of squares.
(2) If the diagonal interpretation is used, obviously the squares of an area effect do not need to line up with the squares on the combat grid.
(3) If I take an 8-square horizontal wall and straddle 2 rows on the grid with it, I can affect 16 squares with my wall.

OK. Leave it there if it makes sense. From there...

(4) If it's offset a bit - say a half-square to the right - it can affect even more squares, a total of 18 if I'm doing my math right.

-O
 

Anax

First Post
If you want to get really technical about things:

1) In 4E-space, the distance metric is Delta = max(Delta_x, Delta_y). (In Euclidean space, it's Delta = (Delta_x^2 + Delta_y^2)^0.5. In taxi-cab space it's Delta = Delta_x + Delta_y.)

2) Although it is expressed in terms of "an n-x-n square", a 4E blast covers a circle in 4E space. The circle has diameter n.

3) No point within the area of a circle of diameter n is further away than n from any other point within that circle.

4) Therefore the only figure that describes a circle in 4E-space is a figure that would describe a square in Euclidean space which has sides parallel to the x- and y-axes. Specifically:

Code:
n=3 n=5   n=7
XXX XXXXX XXXXXXX
XXX XXXXX XXXXXXX
XXX XXXXX XXXXXXX
    XXXXX XXXXXXX
    XXXXX XXXXXXX
          XXXXXXX
          XXXXXXX

The following figure is not a circle (blast) of diameter 3 in 4E-space:

Code:
X
XX
XXX
 XX
  X

It covers the same area (number of squares), but the top left corner is more than 3 away from the lower right corner. Therefore it cannot be inscribed within a circle of diameter 3. It is not a 4E-circle.

The following figure is not a circle (blast) of diameter 3 in 4E-space:

Code:
 X
 XXX
XXX
  X

It covers less squares of area than a 4E-circle would (eight instead of nine squares). However, it still cannot be inscribed within a circle, because the top "point" is more than three squares of distance away from the bottom "point".


Because blast areas in 4E are circles under the distance metric in 4E, there is no way to "rotate" them which does not result in exactly the same figure. They are perfect circles in 4E space and any attempt to rotate them that results in a different figure is based on translation into a different spatial measurement system--and specifically, it involves transforming the figure in a faulty way.

If you want to cover different kinds of areas, I strongly suggest that you house-rule a change in coordinate systems. The best choice would probably be to a faux-Euclidean space in which diagonal movement costs 1.5x horizontal or vertical movement. For simplicity, you can say it alternates between one and two times normal movement. With that definition, the following are valid blasts (remember: the first diagonal is 1 space, the second is two, etc. This is counting from the center for my figures):

Code:
n=3 n=5   n=7
XXX  XXX    XXX
XXX XXXXX  XXXXX
XXX XXXXX XXXXXXX
    XXXXX XXXXXXX
     XXX  XXXXXXX
           XXXXX
            XXX

Taxi-cab space is also a possibility--this is a space where you cannot move diagonally, only horizontally or vertically. The following are circles in taxi-cab space:

Code:
n=3 n=5   n=7
 X    X      X
XXX  XXX    XXX
 X  XXXXX  XXXXX
     XXX  XXXXXXX
      X    XXXXX
            XXX
             X

Either of these geometries are much more amenable to cone-shaped areas than 4E's geometry. I suspect that's part of why they left cones out of the system completely--they just don't make sense.


A further alternative that stays within 4E's geometry but allows for slightly more control would be to allow the shape of a blast to cover the caster's square (without actually damaging the caster):

Code:
OXX XXX
XXX OXX
XXX XXX

My opinion is that allowing these two options for the casting shape increases the flexibility of blasts, but only to a very slight degree. The main increase in power here comes from the right figure, in which the caster can hit five adjacent enemies. If you forbid this option, all of the other shapes (including the left variant above) only allow the caster to hit three adjacent enemies--all of the other enemies must be further away.
 
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NMcCoy

Explorer
Another thing to consider: as far as I can tell, a wizard with Arcane Reach can aim a blast at himself if he's willing to take the hit, thus possibly hitting a bunch of surrounding enemies. (I'm also tempted to make a paragon tier feat, Arcane Eruption (prereq: Con 15), that lets you turn an Area Burst power into a Close Burst that excludes your own square.)
 

Torg Smith

First Post
KarinsDad said:
You are asking the wrong question.

The proper question is:

Where do the rules say the area of a blast must be a square shape?

I may have missed it, but I did not see such a rule.

I will repeat my last post.

The example on page 272 clearly states ‘The wizard power thunderwave is a blast 3, which means the power affects a 3-square-by-3-square area adjacent to you. The ‘which means’ is clearly a clarification of the rule as opposed to an arbitrary example. This defines the area as a square. A square has all four sides of equal length.
 


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