Neverwinter Knight
First Post
For purposes of Teleportation, it is necessary to reduce the weight of other party members for my wizard. We have a Bag of Holding available, but I don't know, if you can place living creatures in it. Is it safe?
Can you place living creatures in a bag of holding
Kae'Yoss
First Post
In fact, that problem was brought up somewhere in a book (ELH I believe): many parties abuse that rule to greatly reduce their travelling costs.
As an advice to DM's, they wrote that they should be surprised by a powerful enemy (e.g, a dragon) right after they teleportet, who does away with the carrier quickly and takes the sack to a more convinient place to open it. Like the bottom of a lake....
As an advice to DM's, they wrote that they should be surprised by a powerful enemy (e.g, a dragon) right after they teleportet, who does away with the carrier quickly and takes the sack to a more convinient place to open it. Like the bottom of a lake....
logic and the bag of holding (even in DnD)
Hey good idea lets abuse the players for thinking and acting smart.
My question is...how do you fit a party member in the bag? Do you reduce them? Do you Polymorph them? If you did that you would not need to put them in the bag. I can see putting some creatures in the bag, but even a halfing may be a tight fit around the mouth of the bag, unless of course there is a rule stating...the diameter the mouth of a bag of holding is..and and if so I would like to see it.
Hey good idea lets abuse the players for thinking and acting smart.
My question is...how do you fit a party member in the bag? Do you reduce them? Do you Polymorph them? If you did that you would not need to put them in the bag. I can see putting some creatures in the bag, but even a halfing may be a tight fit around the mouth of the bag, unless of course there is a rule stating...the diameter the mouth of a bag of holding is..and and if so I would like to see it.
rushlight
Roll for Initiative!
"My question is...how do you fit a party member in the bag? Do you reduce them? Do you Polymorph them? If you did that you would not need to put them in the bag. I can see putting some creatures in the bag, but even a halfing may be a tight fit around the mouth of the bag, unless of course there is a rule stating...the diameter the mouth of a bag of holding is..and and if so I would like to see it."
From the description of Bag of Holding:
"This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size."
Two feet is wide enough for most medium size creatures to fit through.
"Hey good idea lets abuse the players for thinking and acting smart."
Sure, this tactic is legal and solves some problems. But it is risky, as it is a shortcut around the limitations of Teleport. Occationally it's good for a GM to keep his (or her) players on their toes. Now, you shouldn't ambush them everytime they try this, but once will usually do...
It's the same as if the players constantly sleep in the woods, while never setting a watch. They shouldn't be attacked every night, but occationally their actions should have results.
From the description of Bag of Holding:
"This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size."
Two feet is wide enough for most medium size creatures to fit through.
"Hey good idea lets abuse the players for thinking and acting smart."
Sure, this tactic is legal and solves some problems. But it is risky, as it is a shortcut around the limitations of Teleport. Occationally it's good for a GM to keep his (or her) players on their toes. Now, you shouldn't ambush them everytime they try this, but once will usually do...
It's the same as if the players constantly sleep in the woods, while never setting a watch. They shouldn't be attacked every night, but occationally their actions should have results.
Brekki said:
Its safe - but very risky. Suppose the bagholder fails his save on a hold person, or is panicked, or any other of a host of conditions which would prevent them from opening that bag within 10 minutes.
TPK.
Besides, as Grundle would say, "No dwarf worthy of his race trusts his life to a fool wizard!!!"
I fail to see the connection between sleeping in a forest without a watch posted (something moronically unwise) and having someone jump in a bag of holding to reduce the weight for an instantaneous journey (teleportation) (a very ingenuitive use of items and spells).
Even more importantly, a theme I see running through the thread as well as others is: DM vs. players, an idealogy that having experienced first hand results in a net of no fun for the players and what's worse, discontent.
(Gaiden dusts off his soap box with a newly cleaned dust broom. Looking rather thoughtfully at the surrounding crowd, he debates the best manner of speaking to the audience. Using his young disciple as support he creakily steps onto the old (from much use) wooden box).
Hhhm, When I was a lad, a did me some gamin'...much like the rest of ye' I would imagine. I had me some fun...fun lasting for hours and hours. Of course, there were always the sessions where the DM was out to git us. Those were never fun -
--SHUT UP OLD MAN!--
Hrumph, as I was sayin': I have learned in my aged wisdom (at the age of 22) that DM's running a game with neutral tendencies adjusted by slightly "for-party" inclinations tends to cause the players to have the most fun and consequently foster the best gaming sessions. Rather than taking the philosophy of punishing the characters for sleeping on watch simply respond as if that did not matter - i.e. don't change any of your random encounters - just have them occur while the party sleeps. If random encounters occur with X frequency at night then see what happens when one of the resultant encounters occurs while the party sleeps. Suddenly causing an encounter every time the party sleeps (that sometimes be more challenging then what would occur normally) and then not having any encounters while the party keeps watch simply does not make sense, but more importantly will result in players not enjoying the game.
With regards to the ingenuitive use of teleportation and a bag of holding, apply the same philosophy that the DM is a neutral arbiter. The only real way a DM could have an ambush waiting for a party who practiced this teleportation/bag of hoding technique is if the ambushers had previously known about the tactic, knew it was going to happen in this case, knew the location that the party would teleport to, had time to set up the ambush before the part arrived, etc. Moreover, each of the previous requirements are no simple matter. For one, the ambusher would have to see the person get into the bag of holding, then know that the teleportation spell was cast (and not say invisibility, or any other manner of spells that would cause the party to disappear). Moreover, they would then have to realize that the party was doing this to evade the weight limit of the spell. Also, they would have to realize that the bag was a bag of holding out of all the possible magic items that could cause a person to disappear inside. Next, they would have to know the party was going to use the tactic. By knowing I do not mean seeing the person jump in the bag of holding and then seeing the party cast the spell because that would not give them enough time to prepare for an ambush. Most importantly, the ambushers would have to know where the party was going to teleport and know it before the spellcaster cast teleport (so that an ambush could be set up).
With all of the above in mind, if a villian did figure all of that info out, then first off, you have a very dedicated villian who has spent many days, weeks, and perhaps months, viewing the party in secret (either by scrying or as a party member) and secondly someone who is smart enough to not use this tactic until it really matters. AKA set up a fight and once the party needs to leave because they are out of spells, HPs, etc. then the ambush is sprung.
In other words, you have completely left the idealogy of punishing the characters and are simply creating a game environment where the villians play up to their potential.
Even more importantly, a theme I see running through the thread as well as others is: DM vs. players, an idealogy that having experienced first hand results in a net of no fun for the players and what's worse, discontent.
(Gaiden dusts off his soap box with a newly cleaned dust broom. Looking rather thoughtfully at the surrounding crowd, he debates the best manner of speaking to the audience. Using his young disciple as support he creakily steps onto the old (from much use) wooden box).
Hhhm, When I was a lad, a did me some gamin'...much like the rest of ye' I would imagine. I had me some fun...fun lasting for hours and hours. Of course, there were always the sessions where the DM was out to git us. Those were never fun -
--SHUT UP OLD MAN!--
Hrumph, as I was sayin': I have learned in my aged wisdom (at the age of 22) that DM's running a game with neutral tendencies adjusted by slightly "for-party" inclinations tends to cause the players to have the most fun and consequently foster the best gaming sessions. Rather than taking the philosophy of punishing the characters for sleeping on watch simply respond as if that did not matter - i.e. don't change any of your random encounters - just have them occur while the party sleeps. If random encounters occur with X frequency at night then see what happens when one of the resultant encounters occurs while the party sleeps. Suddenly causing an encounter every time the party sleeps (that sometimes be more challenging then what would occur normally) and then not having any encounters while the party keeps watch simply does not make sense, but more importantly will result in players not enjoying the game.
With regards to the ingenuitive use of teleportation and a bag of holding, apply the same philosophy that the DM is a neutral arbiter. The only real way a DM could have an ambush waiting for a party who practiced this teleportation/bag of hoding technique is if the ambushers had previously known about the tactic, knew it was going to happen in this case, knew the location that the party would teleport to, had time to set up the ambush before the part arrived, etc. Moreover, each of the previous requirements are no simple matter. For one, the ambusher would have to see the person get into the bag of holding, then know that the teleportation spell was cast (and not say invisibility, or any other manner of spells that would cause the party to disappear). Moreover, they would then have to realize that the party was doing this to evade the weight limit of the spell. Also, they would have to realize that the bag was a bag of holding out of all the possible magic items that could cause a person to disappear inside. Next, they would have to know the party was going to use the tactic. By knowing I do not mean seeing the person jump in the bag of holding and then seeing the party cast the spell because that would not give them enough time to prepare for an ambush. Most importantly, the ambushers would have to know where the party was going to teleport and know it before the spellcaster cast teleport (so that an ambush could be set up).
With all of the above in mind, if a villian did figure all of that info out, then first off, you have a very dedicated villian who has spent many days, weeks, and perhaps months, viewing the party in secret (either by scrying or as a party member) and secondly someone who is smart enough to not use this tactic until it really matters. AKA set up a fight and once the party needs to leave because they are out of spells, HPs, etc. then the ambush is sprung.
In other words, you have completely left the idealogy of punishing the characters and are simply creating a game environment where the villians play up to their potential.
Gaiden said:
I agree with you that DM shouldn't be out to burn the PC's. It's a game and games are supposed to be fun for all.
However, I disagree with you about the likelihood problems arising from the Bag-of-Holding-Teleport manuever. In my experience, a party will often teleport into dangerous areas, often times without scrying beforehand. Dungeons and Evil Temples are dangerous areas with dangerous foes. There is often a very real possibility of combat ensuing immediately when a group teleports into such a location. A DM should not pull punches in such a situation.
I would be loathe to routinely risk my character's life by climbing into a bag of holding. The Bag-of-Holding-Teleport manuever is sometimes warranted, but only in the most dire of circumstances.
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