D&D 5E Can you shove or grapple a creature that you're riding?

[discosoc]

I would say that a "Shove" can be described in many ways.

This is probably key. For example, the term grapple doesn't really have to mean bear-hugging; you could argue that a grandmother who's dragging an unruly child away by the ear has effectively "grappled" him. Or shoving a wyvern mid-flight could be described as slamming your shield into the back of it's head to stun it just enough to fall from the sky. That kind of thing. It all seems so ridiculous at first, but the more I think about it, the more I think the crazy situations *can* actually be described well enough.

 

[akr71]

An ogre is also capable of carrying me around, according to weight limits, yet I can grapple or shove it around just fine -- provided I make the necessary checks.

If common sense were to kick in, it would have done so long before weird situations like the ones I brought up. Per the rules, you can explicitly grapple an ogre with a single hand, preventing them from moving without first breaking your grapple. With two attacks, you could also simply grapple then shove the ogre to the ground with one hand and it can't stand up at all. You could also do it to a horse, bear, djinni, shambling mound, manticore, wyvern, or any variety of young dragons...

As a GM you could certainly house-rule that it's not possible to grapple something larger than yourself, but it *is* a house rule. I agree that the whole concept seems ridiculous, which is partly what got me thinking about stuff like grappling or shoving something that you're actively riding.

Still, my question isn't so much about what makes sense, but rather if I'm reading the rules correctly (RAW) and everything I've stated above and in the OP is accurate.

Ya, true enough. I also should have re-read and edited my post after I had my morning coffee. I was imagining what it would take to put a wyvern in a full nelson and my response was a tad troll-ish. At my table, I'd allow a roll to grapple a wyvern - it would be difficult, but should you succeed, it wouldn't be a full-nelson...

Now you've got me imagining a fantasy sumu wrestler leaping high into the air in order to land on his horse with the force of multiple gravities in order to make a point about physics and the conservation of energy, not force. Poor little horsie.

Please see above...

 

[cmad1977]

Sure.


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[discosoc]

At my table, I'd allow a roll to grapple a wyvern - it would be difficult, but should you succeed, it wouldn't be a full-nelson...

I actually did have a player do this a few years ago. The encounter was supposed to be a pair of wyverns swooping down and attacking the party as they took a short rest in the forest. I think the dwarf paladin decided to climb a tree or something to get a better view of their destination, and the druid started some kind of ritual spell in the clearing below. Anyway, The dwarf gets up there and spots the wyverns coming in hot and decides *not* to warn the druid and instead have her act as wyvern bait. Everyone rolls initiative. The druid is surprised so does nothing special, and the paladin readies a grapple for the first wyvern that attacks the helpless druid. The wyvern attacks, the dwarf jumps out of the tree and lands the grapple, dropping the wyvern prone (no hover) right in front of the druid.

The other wyvern was smart enough to just keep flying in search of a different mate.

It was fun, and one of the highlights of 5e over the last few years.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I don't think its generally in the best interests of the flow of the game* to have players simply declaring whatever game mechanics or system results, they are attempting. Its usually better to have them describe what their character is actually doing, or attempting to do, within the narration of the story.

So rather than a player asking, "Can I take the shove action on my horse to knock it prone?," I'd rather hear something like, "I shift my weight off center, and yank down hard on the saddle horn, in an effort to throw the horse off balance and pull it down to the ground." This gives me a narrative image of what he's attempting to do. It's something a person is clearly capable of doing in a story. And I can adjudicate it from there.




[*nor, IMO, is it as much fun. Telling fun stories and colorful narratives is the best part of the game to me. Why be antiseptic and mechanical when we can choose to be descriptive and interesting. YMMV...]

The problem is the mechanics tell us what he's trying to do. I would let your example wrangle a horse that way with an Athletics check, but if he was a Fighter with Extra Attack and tried to argue he got to continue his turn, I would nic it. So it's not a Shove attack.

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[GMMichael]

(a). You're riding a horse out of combat and decide to "shove" it into the ground. Since the horse probably wasn't expecting you to be a source of danger, I'm thinking it's safe to assume that it's surprised, thus can't act on the first round of combat that you just initiated. You attempt the shove and succeed, forcing the horse prone (and you're probably thrown to the ground as well), effectively stopping it's movement until it can act next.
. . .
(c). What if you grappled instead of shoved? Are you literally pinning a horse to the ground after putting it into an Equine Full Nelson? Is the Wyvern totally screwed as you both plummet to your deaths?

a) You can't shove a creature you're riding, because a shove requires resistance - which is at least two feet on the ground.

c) Riding a flying creature IS grappling it. Otherwise you'd fall off.

 

[discosoc]

a) You can't shove a creature you're riding, because a shove requires resistance - which is at least two feet on the ground.

c) Riding a flying creature IS grappling it. Otherwise you'd fall off.

Where is this information stated, mechanically? Seems rather arbitrary to me. Also, riding a flying creature can't be grappling because grappling is an action that requires the use of one hand. There is nothing stating you can't hold on with your legs and do something like shoot a bow while on the back of a gryphon, although it would possibly take an animal handling check...

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Not to mention that a grappled creature has 0 speed and consequently couldn't fly (or immediately start falling as long as it's grappled).

 

[Corwin]

The problem is the mechanics tell us what he's trying to do.

I get that some people prefer it that way. I do not believe 5e is designed, or written, to foster such a thing. Which is why I don't think your argument is best served attempting to pass off your opinion, or playstyle, as fact.

Not to mention, your post seems to imply that the DM shouldn't engage the player for understanding. As if, once the player declares his intended action, the DM makes an instant ruling and they are locked into it. No discourse allowed after that. Which I also find odd.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I get that some people prefer it that way. I do not believe 5e is designed, or written, to foster such a thing. Which is why I don't think your argument is best served attempting to pass off your opinion, or playstyle, as fact.

Not to mention, your post seems to imply that the DM shouldn't engage the player for understanding. As if, once the player declares his intended action, the DM makes an instant ruling and they are locked into it. No discourse allowed after that. Which I also find odd.

But it's okay to state your opinion or playstyle as fact?

O...kay...

The OP stated his intention. He used mechanics to do so. That's perfectly fine. He can also do it your way. Both tell me what he wants to do, and I gave my rulings. But your way doesn’t clarify whatnhe actually means. He wants to use a Shove which is an attack resolved by an ability check and allowing him to make another attack or attempt if he has the Extra Attack feature, rather than using his action for an ability check to wrangle the horse to the ground. They are two different things, and get two different rulings.

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