D&D 5E Can you shove or grapple a creature that you're riding?

[discosoc]

As far as I can tell you can, but I'm curious if the following examples hold true (or if I'm completely wrong in the first place).

(a). You're riding a horse out of combat and decide to "shove" it into the ground. Since the horse probably wasn't expecting you to be a source of danger, I'm thinking it's safe to assume that it's surprised, thus can't act on the first round of combat that you just initiated. You attempt the shove and succeed, forcing the horse prone (and you're probably thrown to the ground as well), effectively stopping it's movement until it can act next.

(b). What if you did it while riding on the back of a Wyvern? Would it immediately fall to the ground prone? Are there rules I've missed somewhere stating how far you can fall in a round, or is it just assumed that the Wyvern has no chance to recover before hitting the ground?

(c). What if you grappled instead of shoved? Are you literally pinning a horse to the ground after putting it into an Equine Full Nelson? Is the Wyvern totally screwed as you both plummet to your deaths?


Anyway, am I missing something or would that stuff really play out the way it seems?

 

[KahlessNestor]

No, reality circumvents rules. I would rule you can't shove what you're riding. You could grapple, I suppose, but I would rule you're only holdimg on, not imposing the grappled condition. Again, tou have no leverage.

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[wedgeski]

I wouldn't apply "shove" to any creature you're riding but I certainly would allow grapple checks for those effects.

Pulling a horse to the ground seems completely reasonable. If you're big enough and you throw your weight off center while pulling the reins, why not? An opposed check or two, and the horse might even win that contest, leaving the rider with his face in the dirt or being hauled along by the reins. Seems fun and dramatic, IMO, and you've probably seen it a hundred times in westerns.

Grappling/pinning a flying creature's wings also seems like a super-cinematic action for an athletic character to bring a flying opponent down, but the risk should be high. Presumably the wyvern is trying to buck the aggressor off its back the whole time. As for how long it takes to fall...I usually just rule that a fall happens instantaneously, but a dose of logic might need to be applied at high altitudes. Besides, having to maintain the grapple creates the possibility for all kinds of drama and last-minute danger. This is to say nothing of the damage both creatures will take on impact, but the PC in question might consider the trade-off to be worth it.

As for your last point, I actually had a minotaur PC square off against a charging villain and wrestle his horse to the ground. When the whole table cheers something, you know you've made the right call.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

When reality doesn't match the rules I usually do the following: I tell my players they can get the effects they want and are allowed by the rules, but they need to narrate it in a realistic way. So by rules it might just be a "shove", but in narration, there's a lot more flavour text to it. If the player can't think of a reasonable way to accomplish it, I don't allow it.

(b). What if you did it while riding on the back of a Wyvern? Would it immediately fall to the ground prone? Are there rules I've missed somewhere stating how far you can fall in a round, or is it just assumed that the Wyvern has no chance to recover before hitting the ground?

Not in the rules, but a creature falls around 600ft per round (6 seconds). As combat rarely takes place at higher heights, I guess they never cared to put it in the rules.

I also thought it might be quite a bit OP, because a low level party could just go hunting flying creatures and then knock them prone for 20d6 damage. So I personally decided that the actual falling doesn't happen until the creature's turn.

So knocking a flying creature prone would actually only make it fall 5ft down and get the "Prone" state. Then at the start of its turn, it either has to use half its movements to stop falling or fall 600ft. If that didn't make it hit the ground, then it's probably too far away for any attacks and combat ends.

 

[Horwath]

You could shove a creature that you are riding but you would have to be shoved in opposite direction yourself(action-reaction Newtons Law).

 

[akr71]

No. Just no. You're mount is already capable of carrying your weight - applying more force downward to it in the form of a shove it not going to amount to anything. You could hit it across the head and make it fall unconscious I suppose.

(c). What if you grappled instead of shoved? Are you literally pinning a horse to the ground after putting it into an Equine Full Nelson? Is the Wyvern totally screwed as you both plummet to your deaths?

The character's arms would have to be incredibly long - like troll length at least - to accomplish that. I know its a fantasy game, but common sense has to kick in at some point... and the rider would vulnerable to the stinger the whole time.

 

[discosoc]

No. Just no. You're mount is already capable of carrying your weight - applying more force downward to it in the form of a shove it not going to amount to anything. You could hit it across the head and make it fall unconscious I suppose.

An ogre is also capable of carrying me around, according to weight limits, yet I can grapple or shove it around just fine -- provided I make the necessary checks.

The character's arms would have to be incredibly long - like troll length at least - to accomplish that. I know its a fantasy game, but common sense has to kick in at some point... and the rider would vulnerable to the stinger the whole time.

If common sense were to kick in, it would have done so long before weird situations like the ones I brought up. Per the rules, you can explicitly grapple an ogre with a single hand, preventing them from moving without first breaking your grapple. With two attacks, you could also simply grapple then shove the ogre to the ground with one hand and it can't stand up at all. You could also do it to a horse, bear, djinni, shambling mound, manticore, wyvern, or any variety of young dragons...

As a GM you could certainly house-rule that it's not possible to grapple something larger than yourself, but it *is* a house rule. I agree that the whole concept seems ridiculous, which is partly what got me thinking about stuff like grappling or shoving something that you're actively riding.

Still, my question isn't so much about what makes sense, but rather if I'm reading the rules correctly (RAW) and everything I've stated above and in the OP is accurate.

 

[BookBarbarian]

When the rules allow something that seems impossible I just take it as a DM chance to describe something really cool.

I would say that a "Shove" can be described in many ways. Want to shove the horse you are riding to the ground? Just do it by the rules, and I as the DM will describe in the best way that I can without breaking suspension of disbelief disbelief (too much). Maybe I say your character slides around to the horse underside which throws it off balance and it falls, or maybe you just grab the reins and yank really hard and the horse falls to one side.

For the wyvern, assuming you are in a position to grapple or shove it, I say go for it. I will gladly describe you trapping a wing against it's body, and the wyvern spiraling to the ground. Just don't forget, you are along for the whole ride.

 

[Corwin]

I don't think its generally in the best interests of the flow of the game* to have players simply declaring whatever game mechanics or system results, they are attempting. Its usually better to have them describe what their character is actually doing, or attempting to do, within the narration of the story.

So rather than a player asking, "Can I take the shove action on my horse to knock it prone?," I'd rather hear something like, "I shift my weight off center, and yank down hard on the saddle horn, in an effort to throw the horse off balance and pull it down to the ground." This gives me a narrative image of what he's attempting to do. It's something a person is clearly capable of doing in a story. And I can adjudicate it from there.




[*nor, IMO, is it as much fun. Telling fun stories and colorful narratives is the best part of the game to me. Why be antiseptic and mechanical when we can choose to be descriptive and interesting. YMMV...]

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

No. Just no. You're mount is already capable of carrying your weight - applying more force downward to it in the form of a shove it not going to amount to anything. You could hit it across the head and make it fall unconscious I suppose.

Now you've got me imagining a fantasy sumu wrestler leaping high into the air in order to land on his horse with the force of multiple gravities in order to make a point about physics and the conservation of energy, not force. Poor little horsie.