Certain Justice - Megaoverpowered?

[Dr_Sage]

Good evening!


I was looking at Certain Justice (PHB 100) from champion of Order paladin paragon path.

* +4 to hit? Nice!
* Dazed and weakenned until no longer marked? (wtf!)
* Encounte power (???)

Its just me or this seems way too powerfull? Sounds like the paladin can choose 1 oponent to be screwed up all combat long. And do it every combat.

PS: I know there are ways to break a mark but pls do not consider them when answering. I dont like to let a player have something just to keep countering that later.

 

[Turtlejay]

Off the top of my head:
- It is a 1W power, which is weak at that level.
- The Paladin mark requires him to attack or move adjacent to his target or it expires.
- Dazed only gives you one action.

It is essentially forcing the target to go toe to toe with the Paladin until one of them breaks. Against a well picked target I can see it being encounter-ending glory, but I imagine most of the time it ends up not mattering a whole lot.

Jay

 

[Samir]

PS: I know there are ways to break a mark but pls do not consider them when answering. I dont like to let a player have something just to keep countering that later.

You're asking if an ability is overpowered, and then specifically telling us not to consider its counters. If you don't consider counters, every ability is overpowered.

Divine Challenge requires you to remain adjacent to the target or be attacking it in order to keep the mark. All it takes is a single immobilize or slow and the Champion of Order's (admittedly very good) power is wasted.

 

[FireLance]

It's a power that is frighteningly effective against a solo monster, can make a fight significantly easier if used on an elite, and is still nice even if used on a standard monster.

To be frank, I'm surprised that WotC hasn't errata'ed it yet. Until WotC does, I'm quite prepared to exploit to the fullest extent that my DM will let me.

 

[Dr_Sage]

You're asking if an ability is overpowered, and then specifically telling us not to consider its counters. If you don't consider counters, every ability is overpowered.

Divine Challenge requires you to remain adjacent to the target or be attacking it in order to keep the mark. All it takes is a single immobilize or slow and the Champion of Order's (admittedly very good) power is wasted.

I was just saying that rogue powers and such that cancel marks should not be considered becuse they will be rarely seem.

I remmember seem people in this forum desperate becuse a wizard can impose a long lasting effect, very hard to save against in 18+ level. We are talking about the same thing: as long as the paladin do as little as throw a rock at the monster the creature is permanently marked.

He can attack-shift away permanently. Seems too cheap to keep 2 hard conditions on .. say... a solo?

 

[Turtlejay]

His other gifts are not really that great either, focusing on Outsiders and Elementals. I'd say this encounter power helps keep the whole mess from sucking.

Jay

 

[FireLance]

His other gifts are not really that great either, focusing on Outsiders and Elementals. I'd say this encounter power helps keep the whole mess from sucking.

As player, I will shamelessly abuse certain justice, but as a DM, I think it's overcompensating.

 

[DracoSuave]

So, has anyone made a well designed encounter trivial through this paragon path yet?

If not, then it's not a problem.

 

[lvl20dm]

This power is most certainly too good. I ran a group with a Paladin that went Champion of Order. I watched this power used from levels 11 to 15 before finally deciding to change it. It did trivialize Solo monsters - and only very rarely did I see one break the challenge (this is even harder after divine power, which has a feat to help maintain challenges). Elites were also significantly neutered. Even standard encounters were greatly impacted. A good party will quickly realize how powerful this power is (by my experience) and go to great lengths to insure that it hits and stays in effect.

I ultimately decided to raise to 3(W) damage and make the effect only last one round. It's still a great power.

 

[FireLance]

So, has anyone made a well designed encounter trivial through this paragon path yet?

If not, then it's not a problem.

Define "well designed".

My DM has been taking us through the paragon level Dungeon Delves, and we have found that we generally overcome the encounters with relative ease. In most fights, the party does not even have to use any healing powers because we beat the monsters before anybody gets bloodied.

Of course, certain justice is only one of the contributing factors. We also have an eladrin tactical warlord/spiral tactician who makes our action points very effective, and a dwarf ranger/pit fighter wielding two jagged waraxes who carves great chunks out of the enemies' hit points.