Change the Situation (Skill Challenges)!

[Manbearcat]

Well, in terms of characterization of the opponents I thought the penultimate situation was hard to justify. It feels more like an end state psychologically in my understanding of people and their general motivations and behaviors. Now, I note, you elided all the portions of the SC between the initial setup and the penultimate situation before the final succeed/fail check. This is where you would have sold me.

However, I also have a mechanical issue, maybe not with the challenge itself, but it seems like there just isn't rope enough, that is narrative distance enough, separating the initial state from the penultimate state to absorb 12 reasonably significant steps of plot development. I'm just not seeing what those 9 successes and 2 failures were ABOUT. Again, this is elided, and IMHO you don't know either.

So, it comes out feeling weak to me in these two ways. I don't think this is a terrible issue for your example, really. It does get across the concept "this check should have some real significance" which is what you're talking about. That may mean I'm actually picking on something that is just not really supposed to be illustrated by this example.

Ah. Interesting. So yeah, entirely something else.

1) Yeah, I don't have any account (empirical or theoretical - though I could do the latter if you'd like to discuss) of going from initial framing and stakes to the above falling action @ 9:2 success/failure. This wasn't a play recap. I just wrote it up for the purposes of this thread.

2) I'm assuming your dispute mechanically is that you feel that it should correlate to deeper complexity, so a C5 SC rather than a C4 (that seems to be what you're conveying above?)

3) You don't feel like the way the situation changed either (a) addressed the premise coherently, or (b) maintained the momentum with the prior state, or (c) would functionally fall on the Falling Action of the dramatic arc (right before denouement)?

Yeah?

 

[Garthanos]

. As I said in the disease/wound discussion though, I can see an argument for a 'resource consumption' concept that could lead to checks that aren't strictly part of any one single scene. For example a ritual to resist extreme cold could cost some residuum and have an associated check. Its effects could be gated by a check that determines how many points of freezing damage you resist as a result. I'd note though that the check isn't strictly needed here, but the expenditure vs savings are still a thing.

Man versus environment still needs complexity and choice detail to be worthy I feel

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ah. Interesting. So yeah, entirely something else.

1) Yeah, I don't have any account (empirical or theoretical - though I could do the latter if you'd like to discuss) of going from initial framing and stakes to the above falling action @ 9:2 success/failure. This wasn't a play recap. I just wrote it up for the purposes of this thread.

2) I'm assuming your dispute mechanically is that you feel that it should correlate to deeper complexity, so a C5 SC rather than a C4 (that seems to be what you're conveying above?)

3) You don't feel like the way the situation changed either (a) addressed the premise coherently, or (b) maintained the momentum with the prior state, or (c) would functionally fall on the Falling Action of the dramatic arc (right before denouement)?

Yeah?

Yeah, mostly I think that "some guys appear at the gate" through "the guards may agree to a duel to see if you're worthy to enter" (I'm paraphrasing your SC a bit here) is a rather small amount of narrative distance. The scenery hasn't changed, nothing seems to have entered or left the scene, etc. So maybe its more like complexity 2. I don't consider complexity and DIFFICULTY to be the same thing, which is one thing people often have a problem differentiating. Difficulty in an SC is gated mostly by the SC's level. Now, more complex SCs will generally be harder, but the complexity of the SC relates more to how many elements the GM needs to incorporate. A C5 is an SC that probably has at least 2 distinct parts, and maybe more, with significant changes happening such that probably only the end goal is consistent throughout.

A C5 might be something like:

Steal the Heart of the Mountain

The Goblin King prizes the great gem Heart of the Mountain more than anything else he possesses. The party has engineered a way to steal this fantastic prize. Grebuttz Iron Knife took your potion of invisibility and agreed to deliver the gem at the agreed point, where you promised to deliver to him a great reward of 500 gold pieces and a magic dagger. The challenge consists of sneaking into the mine, insuring that Grebuttz actually makes good on his end of the bargain, and leaving again, all without alerting the Goblin King or his minions, who will surely appear in their countless 1000's to deal with any intruders.

Mechanically this is a complexity 5 SC. Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, and Dungeoneering can all be considered primary skills. Obstacles on the way in consist of goblin patrols, unstable mine shafts, a cave full of bats, etc. One failure during this phase means signs are left or suspicious sounds are generated that the GM is likely to use later when creating hard DCs or other obstacles on the way out. A failure during the meeting phase indicates that Grebuttz is spooked and attempts to run with the gem, requiring quick action of whatever sort. Once 2 failures have been reached at this point, the Goblin King's chief underling, Urgob Big Knuckles shows up with a mining golem and about 50 of troops. The remainder of the SC consists of the golem collapsing mine shafts and the party fleeing the consequences, with Urbob and Co close on their heels.

I'll leave off a list of the different obstacles and bits of scenery and props that will likely appear at various points. The players can always bring these sorts of things into play as they desire, with most of them being standard 'old mine' stuff right out of "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" or whatever. Mining carts on rails with switches in the lines that send the cart careening off a long fall, parallel sets of tracks and multiple cars with jumping back and forth, collapsing ceilings, floors, etc, flooded tunnels, whatever needs to be dreamed up to create the requisite number of checks.

That, IMHO is a complexity 5 challenge.

 

[Manbearcat]

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] , so it looks your take of "I don't feel like there is enough narrative distance between x and y" is sufficient is closest to:

3) You don't feel like the way the situation changed either (a) addressed the premise coherently, or (b) maintained the momentum with the prior state, or (c) would functionally fall on the Falling Action of the dramatic arc (right before denouement)?

So this is a good springboard for talking about the nuts and bolts of handling a singular instance if resolution within a Skill Challenge. I'm going to go ahead and do that. Since this was a success which puts us right at the precipice of ultimate victory or ultimate failure (we're now at 9/10 successes and 2/3 failures), here would be my guiding principles to what comes next:

1) The player should have their PC realize their task.

This should happen in all successes and probably in most failures. In an implicit threat, the Fighter brings about his legendary weapon in an uncanny show of grace and technique, the combination of which is meant to herald a deadly promise.

That happens. The effort delivers its payload.

2) The player's intent is realized through their PC's action.

This should never happen on failures. This only happens on success. The mechanics automatically move further toward success. Broadly, the intent is to move the fiction forward toward the finish line of ultimately realizing their sought goal.

3) Maintain dramatic momentum.

There are multiple vectors for this:

a) Make what happens next exciting and interesting.
b) Observe the continuity of the dramatic arc (the resolution framework will dictate this).
c) Go to the action by hooking into one or more PCs' thematic or archetypal portfolio (make something they're invested in relevant).

4) Change the situation.

As outlined upthread; one or more new obstacles to successful scene resolution need to emerge, which involve interesting decision-points and subsequent fiction.

So lets re-examine the result:

We're now at 9 successes and 2 failures. I back the huntsmen off and the ranking member pays homage to weapon, its wielder, and the bravery/canniness of the PCs for making it to the doorstep of the Wild Hunt's enclave. A brief exchange later, after the ranking huntsmen asks their purpose, and I tell them that there are only two ways to bear witness to the Moon Seer's communing with The Three Fates and gaining their favor:

1) Displace a member of the Wild Hunt in mortal combat (this would be a nested combat Skill Challenge).

2) Track, slay, and bring back the pelt of the avatar of the Elder Spirit, the Primal Beast, that haunts their upper slopes (another nested Skill Challenge).

So we're at the precipice of ultimate victory or defeat; the "falling action" of the dramatic arc where the protagonists get what they want or something else comes to pass.

- PC Task has been realized.
- Player intent has been realized.
- We've got new obstacles.
- We've got new decision-points.
- We've got finality embedded in those obstacles and decision-points.

So now the questions become:

- Is this stuff exciting and interesting to the players?
- Have we gone to the action they've signaled they care about?
- Has the situation changed sufficiently (external context isn't the only relevant bit here...but internal context can be equally, if not more, important)?

That is obviously impossible to answer because we aren't at a table with these theoretical players. But here is how I think we could analyze this further:

- This is mortal combat to assume the mantle of Wild Huntsman (with all the responsibility that comes with it). Are they willing to commit to that level of violence to consult The Three Fates through the Moon Seer? Does one (or more) of the PCs have aspirations to become a member of the Wild Hunt (through fiction/PC build)? Does one (or more) of the PCs have aspirations to undo the Wild Hunt or to oppose one or more of The Three Fates?

- The alternative is direct confrontation with an Elder Spirit whose level of danger, volatility, and status is paralleled only by The World Serpent. That would invariably involve a difficult nested Skill Challenge and an extremely difficult and dangerous combat. Are they willing/capable of going after that prey? What is the fallout of such a pursuit? Would this mean making a mortal enemy of the Elder Spirit of the primal hunt? Or would this mean earning its respect? Does one or more of the PCs have aspirations to hunt/slay the Primal Beast or do they have some sort of allegiance to it?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think you're illustrating one of the tough points with SCs. Its actually very hard to pull them out of the context of the game and table in which they are happening. Vast ink has been spilled on the SC topic, but there's always a certain essence of any challenge that can't easily be described.

 

[Manbearcat]

Alright, an example at Paragon Tier

The situation:

The PCs are running interference for the party Rogue while he infiltrates an Archmage's personal chambers for the physical evidence necessary to prove his guild has interfered with local elections.

Lets call it a Complexity 3, Level +2 SC (8 successes before 3 failures, 3 Advantages, 6 L+2 Med DCs and 2 L+2 High DCs). She's reached the Archmage's bedchamber so we're through the climax and into the falling action; let's say 6 successes and 1 failure at this point.

The triggering move:

Unlike most of her people, the Eladrin Fighter never studied the arcane arts, but she learned enough myth, legacy, and antiquity to hold the interest of children, scholars, and Archmage's alike. When the conversation in the mage's lounge turns to a dispute over religious doctrine, the player deploys Legend Lore (sub History for any other knowledge check) and regales everyone with a tale of the religion's seminal figure and how the orthodoxy emerged. The Fighter's History check just barely fails the L+2 High DC.

The result:

We're now at 6 successes and 2 failures.

"Hmmmm...I think you might be confusing the tale of first prophet with that of the third. I actually happen to have a transliterated work of the annals of those first prophets in my personal chamber, so let's find out, shall we! A quick wave of his hand, an arcane command, a snap of his fingers and the Wizard seems to be rapidly scanning pages you cannot see."

Meanwhile, back in the Archmage's bedchambers...

As the Rogue settles in to tackle the uber-secured vault, books suddenly fly off the bookshelves that adorn every wall. Suspended in mid-air, the pages turn rapidly and several books snap shut and collapse to the floor. One book stays open and suspended. From a nearby desk, a tiny figurine hops off onto the floor and enlarges to the form of an obsidian canine. It makes an immediate bee-line for the book but abruptly stops, sniffs the air and growls lowly...

 

[Garthanos]

Legend Lore eh?

Interesting was just thinking a martial practice where one had access to a library and extra time one could do exactly that... sub History for any other knowledge check

Was wondering if the several dozen books filling the donkeys pack serve a purpose welll yes... yes it does,

 

[Garthanos]

Love the awesome visuals on this by the way

 

[Manbearcat]

Legend Lore eh?

Interesting was just thinking a martial practice where one had access to a library and extra time one could do exactly that... sub History for any other knowledge check

Was wondering if the several dozen books filling the donkeys pack serve a purpose welll yes... yes it does,

Alternatively, that could be skinned as the martial PC having access to something like a "clockwork Google cube" or maybe some sort of at-will comm to an "Alfred-like" NPC who is back at the base and has immediate access to some sort of clockwork archive.

Love the awesome visuals on this by the way

Thanks

I was just trying to grab a scenario where the conflict/scene is about a project whereby the group is split; one part works on one aspect while the other handles a second aspect. Failure in one location doesn't have to change the situation locally (for the group triggering the failure). It can change the situation adversely for the other group!

 

[Garthanos]

Alternatively, that could be skinned as the martial PC having access to something like a "clockwork Google cube" or maybe some sort of at-will comm to an "Alfred-like" NPC who is back at the base and has immediate access to some sort of clockwork archive.

Well I am wondering about possible clockwork devices for the Clockwork Invention practice... basically the idea is to create them fragile tricky to use devices which might have some game role similarity to alchemy.

(Also wondering if Alchemy could use tlc)

Thanks

I was just trying to grab a scenario where the conflict/scene is about a project whereby the group is split; one part works on one aspect while the other handles a second aspect. Failure in one location doesn't have to change the situation locally (for the group triggering the failure). It can change the situation adversely for the other group!

I have had infiltration situation where nobody worked together, but where activity in one area of the complex never the less interacted with others.... for instance distracted denisens from other parts sometimes at the right or wrong moment... others where activity in one area opened flood gates in another and so on. Some of the interactions between one heros tactics and another be quite indirect.