Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
i wrote BR up equivalent... As a paragon level ability (12) it is, i am wondering if I could have it a level 6 ability with scaling.
Change the Situation (Skill Challenges)!
i wrote BR up equivalent... As a paragon level ability (12) it is, i am wondering if I could have it a level 6 ability with scaling.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Was it @Tony Vargas who suggested a feat for making a Martial Practice replace/act like a skill power?
A few rituals and martial practices feel appropriate to be accelerated that way.,
A few rituals and martial practices feel appropriate to be accelerated that way.,
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, I have always thought that all rituals should incorporate scaling. They should also have scaling cost, and then say you don't need the full effect, you can pay a lower level cost and get less effect (IE, a 12th level PC can cast a level 6 Breaching Ram/Passwall because whatever wall he's getting through isn't THAT thick/strong). Of course when costs are more abstract, like costing an HS its harder to scale them, though in a sense HS themselves DO scale.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Yes the costs auto scale and are generally speaking are approx as valuable at low and high level it is certainly a good thing about MP... that rituals do not have. The effects need to scale.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
So after I do a revision of Martial Practices (starting with getting a decent number of the things)
I suppose a revision of rituals is in order huh.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Flavor wise I tend to think perhaps the magic of martial has two foundations that of heroic luck or Fated-ness and that of Extraordinary Blood-lines... although the concept of Chi is more development of exraordinary life force and perhaps that is in there too.
Manbearcat
Legend
Alright, here is another example but Epic Tier
The situation:
A Wilden Fighter has led his comrades deep into the Feywild, through an unswimmable river, a pernicious forest, and up an unclimbable cliff to the Wild Hunt's Enclave. They seek the blessing of the great Moon Seer to discover the lost spirit of the legendary oathbreaker that left the Prince of Frost at the altar, forsaking him for a mortal tryst. They crest the peak and are greeted, inhospitably spear-first, by an assemblage of giant huntsmen. The ranking huntsmen tells them there is nothing for them here and to go back from whence they came or they will forcibly send them back (over the edge of the cliff).
Lets call it a Complexity 4, Level +2 SC (10 successes before 3 failures, 4 Advantages, 7 L+2 Med DCs and 3 L+2 High DCs). They're nearly complete and only have 1 Advantage left. Let's say they're at 8 successes and 2 failures.
The triggering move:
Our Wilden Fighter, gracefully brings his Greatspear about. It goes from a mundane climbing aid to a terrifying specter in the hands of an obvious master in the blink of an eye. The player deploys Steely Persuasion (Weapon Proficiency and Enhancement bonus to Intimidate or Streetwise check...so + 8 in this situation). The Fighter's Intimidate (even with only a +2 Cha) passes the L+2 Medium DC with only a 2 or better. But lets say that I've got a High DC left and I'm going to use it now. The Fighter uses the last remaining Advantage (the legend of this weapon and the prowess of the wielder is apparently well-traveled in the Feywild) to reduce the DC to Medium and he trivially achieves it.
The result:
We're now at 9 successes and 2 failures. I back the huntsmen off and the ranking member pays homage to weapon, its wielder, and the bravery/canniness of the PCs for making it to the doorstep of the Wild Hunt's enclave. A brief exchange later, after the ranking huntsmen asks their purpose, and I tell them that there are only two ways to bear witness to the Moon Seer's communing with The Three Fates and gaining their favor:
1) Displace a member of the Wild Hunt in mortal combat (this would be a nested combat Skill Challenge).
2) Track, slay, and bring back the pelt of the avatar of the Elder Spirit, the Primal Beast, that haunts their upper slopes (another nested Skill Challenge).
The situation:
A Wilden Fighter has led his comrades deep into the Feywild, through an unswimmable river, a pernicious forest, and up an unclimbable cliff to the Wild Hunt's Enclave. They seek the blessing of the great Moon Seer to discover the lost spirit of the legendary oathbreaker that left the Prince of Frost at the altar, forsaking him for a mortal tryst. They crest the peak and are greeted, inhospitably spear-first, by an assemblage of giant huntsmen. The ranking huntsmen tells them there is nothing for them here and to go back from whence they came or they will forcibly send them back (over the edge of the cliff).
Lets call it a Complexity 4, Level +2 SC (10 successes before 3 failures, 4 Advantages, 7 L+2 Med DCs and 3 L+2 High DCs). They're nearly complete and only have 1 Advantage left. Let's say they're at 8 successes and 2 failures.
The triggering move:
Our Wilden Fighter, gracefully brings his Greatspear about. It goes from a mundane climbing aid to a terrifying specter in the hands of an obvious master in the blink of an eye. The player deploys Steely Persuasion (Weapon Proficiency and Enhancement bonus to Intimidate or Streetwise check...so + 8 in this situation). The Fighter's Intimidate (even with only a +2 Cha) passes the L+2 Medium DC with only a 2 or better. But lets say that I've got a High DC left and I'm going to use it now. The Fighter uses the last remaining Advantage (the legend of this weapon and the prowess of the wielder is apparently well-traveled in the Feywild) to reduce the DC to Medium and he trivially achieves it.
The result:
We're now at 9 successes and 2 failures. I back the huntsmen off and the ranking member pays homage to weapon, its wielder, and the bravery/canniness of the PCs for making it to the doorstep of the Wild Hunt's enclave. A brief exchange later, after the ranking huntsmen asks their purpose, and I tell them that there are only two ways to bear witness to the Moon Seer's communing with The Three Fates and gaining their favor:
1) Displace a member of the Wild Hunt in mortal combat (this would be a nested combat Skill Challenge).
2) Track, slay, and bring back the pelt of the avatar of the Elder Spirit, the Primal Beast, that haunts their upper slopes (another nested Skill Challenge).
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
This one seems like a weaker transition.
Manbearcat
Legend
Interesting! You have written a singular sentence that turns out to be fertile ground for conversation on the subject. Nicely done!
So my question is what is “weaker” being describing in the above statement?
As I consider it, it could be associated with a few things:
1) How you as a player would feel the nature of the actual fiction brought about post-resolution; eg its not very compelling or momentous enough to propel you into the falling action and denouement of the challenge.
2) How you as a player would feel about these default decision-points relayed; again, not very compelling (although, of course, you would be free to come up with another course and we could see where that takes us).
3) How you as a 4e analyst feel the GMing principles and related techniques of the game are being applied here.
I don’t have a lot of comments for the first 2 (and certainly any player would be fair in assessing any part of a game as either 1 or 2…sometimes GMs don’t put their best foot forward!). I guess I’ll just say that given where the situation was with respect to ultimate success/failure (1 or the other would lock-in the ultimate result), I went with a couple of the classic admittance to sacred sanctum tropes (and nested a SC for the result). That could be good or bad depending on how folks like their genre tones. I certainly wouldn’t feel offended by a player saying “yeah that’s crap” because sometimes it is! However, on 3 I do have commentary.
So the above would best be related to post 7 above (the alternative to the initiating post where the Fighter failed). Whereas in post 1, the Fighter failed and had his task realized but his intent (to create egress for his group and expedite their exit from the failing structure) was not realized (the opposite in fact), in post 7 both the task and intent are realized. Post 1 would be the equivalent of a Dungeon World 6- result whereby the situation has to become more urgent/dire/desperate/escalated (with the PCs being moved further from their goal rather than closer) in its situation-change, post 7 would be the equivalent of a Dungeon World 7-9 result whereby we’ve got success but a new obstacle/complication/hard choice interposes itself between the PCs and their goals (because the mechanical outcome is still in doubt). Micro-success in a Skill Challenge is just invariably going to be “less interesting” (in my opinion) than failure is.
So, which of the 3 above (or is it something else?) and thoughts on the directly above?
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, in terms of characterization of the opponents I thought the penultimate situation was hard to justify. It feels more like an end state psychologically in my understanding of people and their general motivations and behaviors. Now, I note, you elided all the portions of the SC between the initial setup and the penultimate situation before the final succeed/fail check. This is where you would have sold me.
However, I also have a mechanical issue, maybe not with the challenge itself, but it seems like there just isn't rope enough, that is narrative distance enough, separating the initial state from the penultimate state to absorb 12 reasonably significant steps of plot development. I'm just not seeing what those 9 successes and 2 failures were ABOUT. Again, this is elided, and IMHO you don't know either.
So, it comes out feeling weak to me in these two ways. I don't think this is a terrible issue for your example, really. It does get across the concept "this check should have some real significance" which is what you're talking about. That may mean I'm actually picking on something that is just not really supposed to be illustrated by this example.
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