Changes to Devils and Demons

[DarthDiablo]

I can't speak for him, but that's not what I'm saying. I like the idea of multiple kinds of fiends, but with different unifying themes. Demons can be the lunatic, tear-you-apart monsters; devils can be the human-looking manipulative plotters; and daemons can be infernal power brokers and crooked salesmen of forbidden secrets. But alignment doesn't have to enter into it. I can imagine a lawful evil demon warlord, or a capricious chaotic evil devil. But so long as they're recognizable as demons and devils and daemons, or whatever, alignment can get scrapped as the defining characteristic.

Amen brother!

 

[avin]

I said 3 alignments. Good, NEUTRAL and Evil.

Ok, but why do you feel that such things are more valuable than chaos and law? Why Evil should be more important than Chaos? Don't get me wrong, it still doesn't make sense to me =/

 

[Merlion]

Ok, but why do you feel that such things are more valuable than chaos and law? Why Evil should be more important than Chaos? Don't get me wrong, it still doesn't make sense to me =/

Because alignment is about people's behaviour primarily, and Chaos doesnt much influence peoples behaviour. Chaos is random. People choose their behaviour, it isn't random. Unless their crazy.

Order and Chaos are basically physical forces that help run the physical world...and that are basically just a loop, parts of the same whole. That has little to do with "alignment".

Laws are primarily rules set down by thinking beings. Most laws, in real life and in fiction, exist to basically either protect people and prevent harmful acts (and are therefore just Good) or to repress people while giving power to others (and so are basically just Evil.)


D&D Law and Chaos essentially consist of personality traits and/or political leanings that are better left to roleplay, rather than being tied in to mechanics.

Its like having Smite politician or Protection from Compulsives.

 

[Klaus]

Because alignment is about people's behaviour primarily, and Chaos doesnt much influence peoples behaviour. Chaos is random. People choose their behaviour, it isn't random. Unless their crazy.

Order and Chaos are basically physical forces that help run the physical world...and that are basically just a loop, parts of the same whole. That has little to do with "alignment".

Laws are primarily rules set down by thinking beings. Most laws, in real life and in fiction, exist to basically either protect people and prevent harmful acts (and are therefore just Good) or to repress people while giving power to others (and so are basically just Evil.)


D&D Law and Chaos essentially consist of personality traits and/or political leanings that are better left to roleplay, rather than being tied in to mechanics.

Its like having Smite Politician or Protection from Compulsives.

Coming from a much more Chaotic society than you, I must say Chaos and Law are very important concepts.

Traditional fantasy settings always seem like LG civilization vs. CE monsters. I'd like to see a setting that is much more LE with NG or CG adventurers.

 

[DarthDiablo]

Ok, but why do you feel that such things are more valuable than chaos and law? Why Evil should be more important than Chaos? Don't get me wrong, it still doesn't make sense to me =/

Good and Evil are more basic moral concepts that have been around as long as humans. Law and Chaos, as someone else already pointed out, are more of a political concept. Do you obey the law? I'm sure most of us do. Most of us break it too, whether it's speeding down the road, jaywalking or perhaps someother more serious crime.

We can get into a real long argument here about what is lawful and what isn't. Take the girl in Ireland from about 5 years ago (I think-it made the news in North America anyway) who was impregnated by a rape and wanted an abortion. Coming from a Roman Catholic community, it was illegal for her to do so and from what I recall she went ahead with the abortion (may have been in the States or England, I believe). She did what she felt was for the greater good. She was probably an otherwise law-abiding citizen. Is she now chaotic because she broke a serious law in her homeland? It's legal in other places! But whether she is lawful or chaotic I bet through all of it she is a Good person , although some might argue the that what she did was Evil. Most people consider the same things to be Good-helping others in need, or Evil-killing for personal gain or pleasure, no matter what part of the world you live in. But what is lawful and what is not depend on what the local laws are.

But enough of the real world, let's get back to the fantasy concept. A great deal of the Law vs. Chaos ideology comes from Michael Moorcocks Elric series. It has been a loooooong time since I read those books, but (correct ,me if I'm wrong) from what I recall the concepts were more Law=Good, Chaos=Evil. If you want to run your campaign with a law vs. chaos dichotomy that's fine. I just don't like the way the 9 alignment system shoehorns characters into a certain type of behavior.

Being morally Good, Evil or ambiguous/apathetic (Neutral) to me is more inherit in a person than Lawful/Chaotic. To me it makes more sense to say your character is 1 of those 3-Good, Neutral or Evil. There actions will usually be the same in most situations, (except the Neutral guy who can go either way). Would a Paladin not help an innocent person in need because his High Cleric or King orderd it? By the rules one way or the other he will be acting out of alignment. By their good nature, in my eyes, the Paladin (they are based off heroic knights after all) would help the person, laws be damned, which would make it either a Neutral or Chaotic Good act. Does that mean he is now at risk of losing his Paladin status? Obviously Paladins follow a code (chivalry) that they adhere to, but the current rules force the character into following that code with little leeway. The code should be followed because it's a part of that character, not because of the rules. I.E. Paladins have to follow the code, but other LG characters don't have to, even though they may have near identical ideologies. Lightening up by removing the law/chaos as alignment rules, and making them into guidlines would make the game better IMO. Of course the same could be argued for Good & Evil, but really most fantasy is based off the concept of Good vs. Evil and the designers have already said they're not getting rid of alignment, just reworking it.

 

[DarthDiablo]

Coming from a much more Chaotic society than you, I must say Chaos and Law are very important concepts.

Traditional fantasy settings always seem like LG civilization vs. CE monsters. I'd like to see a setting that is much more LE with NG or CG adventurers.

While I agree the concepts of Law & Chaos are important to flavor, they should not be rule. Not as much rule as Good & Evil should be anyway. Your LE dictator would probably bend/break laws to furter his personal gain, thus making him more NE or CE. Why not just Evil then? Even if he has Lawful tendencies.

As someone else stated Chaos implies randomness or craziness. While they (law/chaos) work well in concept, they are not so good for rule. CN can get away with anything as long as they don't do too much of one thing. LG are very restricted. LE can get away with more because even if they break the law, it's still within they're evil nature to be self-serving. They just don't like to get caught. By that definition most politicians are LE. Even if most of us live in a supposed called LG society.

Am I correct in assuming your concept is probably more like Star Wars. The LE Empire rules while NG/CG freedom fighters are the heroes? Speaking of Heroes, I think that show is one of the best portrayals of why the current alignment system doesn't fit good (good as in well portrayed, not alignment) characters/people. You can gtry to give those characters alignments, but almost all of them do something that falls out of the one they mostly fit into. The world is a grey place. That's why IMO alignment is better used as a tool than a rule.

 

[delericho]

Naturally. And I have the right to point out flaws in your arguments.

... as you see them. But yes, in hindsight I see that I should have noted that.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

...[W]hat I don't like is completely disregarding past material.

If the previous material was poorly thought out in several respects, and I think it was, then it should be trashed with no regrets.

 

[Jared Rascher]

For what its worth, "Law" and "Chaos" are more accurately termed "Order" and "Chaos." And the way they are presented is as more of a cosmic thing than as a political thought process in D&D.

Law and/or Order represents the idea that you see the world as a place that was planned and structured, and that structure should occur and be reinforced, and the overall the universe is better with a grand plan and structure.

Chaos is the not following a specific plan, and trusting that either the universe will work itself out without having a plan, or that the universe is destined to fall apart anyway, and since entropy is inevitable, there is no point in fretting over it.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Incidentally, I wonder what the reaction would be if WotC said, "there's an awful lot of redundancy in the low-level humanoid space. We have Kobolds, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Ogres, Bugbears, Gnolls and Lizardfolk all fighting for the same space. It's too many, so we've streamlined down to just three: Goblins, Orcs and Ogres."

My reaction would be: "It's about time!"