Just trying to make a humorous observation.
D&D 4E changing 4e rules so that the game doesn't need miniatures
*shrug* It would depend on *why* you are trying to get rid of the battlemap. 1) You can't use one because you are in a car or something. 2) You don't like 4E. 3) You are looking to "simplify" the rules. 4) You hate map tactics. 5) You want to speed up combat.
Generally speaking, it is much simpler to not change any rules. You just change the trigger for the rules. If your goal is tactical simplification or speeding up combat a simple change would be abstract distances by aligning the party and monsters into ranks of three. Put Melee skirmishers in the first rank, Defenders in the second rank and range attackers in the third rank. Do the same for equivalent monster types.
1) Party Range
2) Party Defender
3) Party Melee Striker
4) Monster Skirmisher/Lurker
5) Monster Brute/Soldier
6) Monster Artillery
It takes a move action to change to a different rank. With a double move you may change two ranks. A move and a charge changes two ranks. Anyone in a rank is adjacent to anyone in the same rank and a higher or lower rank for attack purposes. Monsters and PCs may be in the same rank. Each defender can keep one monster from advancing into or passing through his rank. Push, pull and slide changes an enemy one rank. One PC in a rank can get a flank for each other PC in a rank (i.e. every 2nd PC in the same rank gets a flank), same for the monsters.
For flyers, enemy flyers would go in rank 0 next to the party’s range attackers, PC flyers or allies would go in rank 7 next to the monster's artillery.
For area effects assume the power hits every even enemy in a rank or let them choose to hit one target. To spice up combat, every once in a while put a pit (or some other obstacle or hazard) in one of the ranks and let people attempt to bull rush or slide, push or pull people into it.
This was an example of abstracting distances. Remember a map is just an abstraction of relative distances. You should abstract whatever you don't like about the map in 4E. The advantage of this type of approach is you don’t have to redo all the rules because most of the time they all still work.
Generally speaking, it is much simpler to not change any rules. You just change the trigger for the rules. If your goal is tactical simplification or speeding up combat a simple change would be abstract distances by aligning the party and monsters into ranks of three. Put Melee skirmishers in the first rank, Defenders in the second rank and range attackers in the third rank. Do the same for equivalent monster types.
1) Party Range
2) Party Defender
3) Party Melee Striker
4) Monster Skirmisher/Lurker
5) Monster Brute/Soldier
6) Monster Artillery
It takes a move action to change to a different rank. With a double move you may change two ranks. A move and a charge changes two ranks. Anyone in a rank is adjacent to anyone in the same rank and a higher or lower rank for attack purposes. Monsters and PCs may be in the same rank. Each defender can keep one monster from advancing into or passing through his rank. Push, pull and slide changes an enemy one rank. One PC in a rank can get a flank for each other PC in a rank (i.e. every 2nd PC in the same rank gets a flank), same for the monsters.
For flyers, enemy flyers would go in rank 0 next to the party’s range attackers, PC flyers or allies would go in rank 7 next to the monster's artillery.
For area effects assume the power hits every even enemy in a rank or let them choose to hit one target. To spice up combat, every once in a while put a pit (or some other obstacle or hazard) in one of the ranks and let people attempt to bull rush or slide, push or pull people into it.
This was an example of abstracting distances. Remember a map is just an abstraction of relative distances. You should abstract whatever you don't like about the map in 4E. The advantage of this type of approach is you don’t have to redo all the rules because most of the time they all still work.
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underfoot007
First Post
Nope, we started using mini back in AD&D games. They use to sell lead minis way back in the olden days of the 1980s. I never saw battle mats back then, I was using dry erase whiteboards.
-jjm
D&D has always been a mini's game. It was taken from fantasy wargaming and shrunk down to party size and dungeon crawling.
The problem I have when people start house ruling is they don't take into account a bunch of smaller things and how it will effect each class.
I say play the game how it is ment to be played and only house rule stuff that is hard to figure that even the community can not explain.
If the a group is playing a game they feel they need to change dramastically then they are just playing the wrong game and should find something else.
The problem I have when people start house ruling is they don't take into account a bunch of smaller things and how it will effect each class.
I say play the game how it is ment to be played and only house rule stuff that is hard to figure that even the community can not explain.
If the a group is playing a game they feel they need to change dramastically then they are just playing the wrong game and should find something else.
I have to agree with Sunglare. Don't waste your time trying to fit some game you don't like into a framework you do like. Play the RPG with the framework you do like - you'll have much more time for actual play instead of wasting time rule tweaking that you could have used to actually play.
I have never found it necessary even in 4e. But I play with people who like to paint minis, craft minis out of hero clix and a whole bunch of other mini based things. I'd kind of feel like a jerk, if I went all no minis in my games after all the work they put into them. On the bright side, I'm sure when I did not use minis, I probably made a bad call or two based on movement. So now in my minis almost every fight thing going, less errors due to movement.
Sir Robilar
First Post
Great suggestions, thanks everyone!
I'm also slowly leaning towards changing to another system, although this saddens me a bit, since D&D has always been the game of my choice.
I recently discovered RuneQuest and if I get it right, it doesn't require miniatures, and is a little grittier, which I prefer. Could someone with the search funtion point me to enworld threads about this game, if any exist?
I'm also slowly leaning towards changing to another system, although this saddens me a bit, since D&D has always been the game of my choice.
I recently discovered RuneQuest and if I get it right, it doesn't require miniatures, and is a little grittier, which I prefer. Could someone with the search funtion point me to enworld threads about this game, if any exist?
Google it. Rolemaster is an old game - its been around almost 30 years - you'll find lots of hits. It is a complicated combat system with a ton of charts. It is sometimes, and accuratly IMO, nicknamed "Chartmaster." It is a very realistic (deadly) system where a crit by anyone can kill almost anyone so you can have an experienced character killed by a rat. In this respect it is very gritty.
If you like a Historical setting and powerful mages I would also recomend Ars Magica. It's set during the dark ages with the exception being the world really *is* the way they thought it was at the time. Combat is also quite lethal, and the magic system is probably the best one I've seen for an RPG. There is no effort to ballance the character classes. Mages are far more powerful than Grogs and Compaions. Each player takes turn running a mage while the other players run a companion. It's very different from D&D. There is even a free download of the prior edition of the rules: e23: Ars Magica 4th Edition Core Rulebook
If you like a Historical setting and powerful mages I would also recomend Ars Magica. It's set during the dark ages with the exception being the world really *is* the way they thought it was at the time. Combat is also quite lethal, and the magic system is probably the best one I've seen for an RPG. There is no effort to ballance the character classes. Mages are far more powerful than Grogs and Compaions. Each player takes turn running a mage while the other players run a companion. It's very different from D&D. There is even a free download of the prior edition of the rules: e23: Ars Magica 4th Edition Core Rulebook
