Chaos with At-Will Cantrips, and Casting Discretion

[Falling Icicle]

If you told a player "You can create any sound, in noise level from a whisper to a shout, within 10 squares, discretely and at will, from first level as a minor action, and there is no saving throw or roll to succeed"

We don't know that for sure. Ghost sound has the Illusion keyword. That keyword probably includes rules that offer the target a chance to resist or requires the caster to roll against their will defense.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I doubt that the Guard would be that easily distracted. Detect magic is now a skill and it would be just your look to run into a guard officer with the Arcane skill.

However, the cantrips are very useful as they stand. I wonder could you use a ritual to sequence a number of cantrips going off together. Ghost sound, mage hand a light all doing something at the same time. That could be very distracting.

 

[Tuft]

I doubt that the Guard would be that easily distracted. Detect magic is now a skill and it would be just your look to run into a guard officer with the Arcane skill.

You don't even need detect magic.

From the preview on Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080425a&pf=true):

"Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed. "​

Makes it a bit hard to trick people with magic...

 

[WhatGravitas]

We don't know that for sure. Ghost sound has the Illusion keyword. That keyword probably includes rules that offer the target a chance to resist or requires the caster to roll against their will defense.

Honestly? Considering the design philosophy behind 4E (no superfluous looking up stuff), it rather looks like the keywords are just descriptors, handles to identify certain groups of spells and their interaction with other spells - like dispel magic that abjures conjurations and zones. Of course, this is also conjecture.

But even if "Illusion" is no special effect - it's not different from mundane sound you could make. It's not much louder - just handy.

Cheers, LT.

 

[IceFractal]

I agree that Wizards will be doing this stuff all the time - and I agree that that's awesome! It looks like Wizards will be the "fun" class - stealing the title from Warlocks, who seem more combat-focused now.

You know what was fun about being a Warlock? It was being able to throw invocations around for no good reason. It was the fact that gratuitously climbing up the sides of buildings or shattering garden ornaments or providing an eldritch light-show wasn't a "waste" of your powers, because those powers were unwasteable.

So heck yes, bring on the Cantrips! Those have actually been one of my favorite things I've seen from 4E so far.



As far as "baffling the town guard", this only happens if you make a world while ignoring what D&D is. D&D is not low magic, unless you make it low magic. D&D is not "standard medieval" unless you specifically change it to be that way. In the standard D&D setting, if such can be said to exist, not only do Wizards who can do this exist, but lots of other things can do similar stuff - fey creatures, wandering spirits ... a town that wants to survive will have guards who are savvy to the possibility of magic.

So sure, the Wizard makes noises and starts freaking people out - then a guard notices something funny is going on, and calls for the eldritch division, who has the skills to sniff out the cause of the disturbance and toss them out of town.

Maybe in a really small town, people are seriously fooled. That's fine, let the Wizard have his fun. He's a big fish in a small pond, and there are bigger ponds out there.

 

[IceFractal]

A point I forgot to mention before. When determining how awed/surprised people are by something, I like to use the "level rareness" guide. In 3E, I use this one, based on the "Aragorn was 5th level" article, although in 4E the numbers would obviously be different:

Level 1 - Common.
Level 2 - Semi-Common.
Level 3 - Rarer, but not unheard of.
Level 4 - Rare, not many around.
Level 5 - Very rare, almost unheard of.
Level 6 - Legendary.

So a spell you can cast at 1st level, is probably not going to baffle people. If you blast someone with Magic Missile, the bystanders aren't going to say "What just happened? There's no weapon!!", they're going to say "Call the guard, that mage just killed someone!".

A spell available at 3rd level, like Invisibility, is going to be somewhat more surprising to the general populace, but in a town of any size there will be people who know what's going on. Maybe the bystanders have no idea how the gems were stolen, but when the guard is called in, they start looking for signs of an invisible thief.

A spell available at 5th level, like Clairvoyance, is not something many people know about or know how to deal with, but the "big players" - leaders of cities, head of powerful guilds, armies of kingdoms - are prepared for it, and will take appropriate measures like shielded rooms for important meetings.

Higher level spells are going to be beyond what most people know. You've got to be a bit legendary yourself - or at least have advisors with that knowledge - to be prepared for them. (This applies more to "physics bending" spells than standard blasting spells).

 

[Zelc]

Or if this is a problem, there's a simple 4E solution.

Roll Int Attack vs. Will Defense. Whoops, you failed, and the guard is now looking for the wizard making these illusionary noises .

 

[cyberpunk]

Well I'm not sure what casting is like in 4e. But in 3e it involves speaking in a loud and clear voice while making obvious hand gestures. I suspect people might pay more attention to that then some of the ghost sounds you are creating.

Of course who knows what things will be like in 4e and if there will be a silent spell type ability. Ultimately though a wizard could pretty much do all of that in 3e too if he could find a way to cast discretely. Not like people tended to run out of cantrips.

Possible, but given that the flavor text (admittedly not binding) of "Ghost Sound" is "With a wink...", it seems unlikely that it is actually "With a wink, and some some loud gesticulation..."

You don't even need detect magic.

From the preview on Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080425a&pf=true):

"Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed. "​

Makes it a bit hard to trick people with magic...

I don't believe this is the definition of "affecting" they are using. If you look at "Ghost Sound", it is target 1 sq./object. You aren't affecting a given creature; you are affecting an area.

Frankly, "Ghost Sound" would be virtually useless, if every time it happened, everyone in the area knew it was an illusion.

Or if this is a problem, there's a simple 4E solution.

Roll Int Attack vs. Will Defense. Whoops, you failed, and the guard is now looking for the wizard making these illusionary noises .

That would be pretty awful to do to your players, if that isn't how the rules are inherently built. "Sorry, I've decided that your cantrip is too uber..."

 

[Cryptos]

That would be pretty awful to do to your players, if that isn't how the rules are inherently built. "Sorry, I've decided that your cantrip is too uber..."

I'm not sure why I think that's funny: because of the traditional associations with the word "cantrip" or because I can see it happening if I played a wizard.

Anyway, the "glass of acid" thing was admittedly simplistic, but I was trying to come up with Mage Hand mischief without any context. However, dropping poison capsules into peoples drinks while they're not looking at a party, from several feet away... hmm... I wonder if there are going to be feats for concealing your magical activities. Of course, this could easily be nixed by the GM saying "Your spectral hand is a large, neon, glowing and flashing hand that hums slightly as it moves."

 

[WhatGravitas]

However, dropping poison capsules into peoples drinks while they're not looking at a party, from several feet away... hmm...

Floating pills are also pretty obvious, unless you distract the people, like with ghost sound! But then, if you're already distracting them, you could also send an assassin there, putting the pills into the glasses himself.

And if you don't distract them, I'd rule that as "Int vs. Passive Perception" - you try to move them carefully... and that's not really different than a rogue with "Thievery vs. Passive Perception", except it's probably a trained skill and hence better.

Cheers, LT.