Character Builds: Build me a combat rogue/sneak attack machine

[Arc]

Hey, this is a little bit of a tangent, but what's the legality status of Ghost Touch + Ring of Blinking. I've seen this combo tossed around a few times on the boards, and while a quick glance at the SRD seems like it might work, it's still a bit vague. Has there been a thread discussing this, or even better, a custserv or FAQ answer about it ?

Answering my own question, heh

Just read the FAQ, and it seems pretty clear that this combo does work. Pretty damn powerful for 27k and a +1 bonus (minimum cost 4k per weapon)

 

[ruleslawyer]

As are the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC, the Shadow Thief of Amn PrC, the wood elf subrace, and the shodow-walker template. I can't see how they wouldn't be aware of the setting limitations of this build. I'm just imagining the character transversing half the continent to take levels in both PrCs. Foreign exchange thieves' guild member program?

Sure, why not? It's not like I'm mixing FR and Eberron material, after all. Granted, this build was somewhat more RP-consistent in 3.0 (when it was just the "Guild Thief" rather than the SToA), but it's hardly inconceivable that a member of the Shadow Thieves would find his way to Telflamm, especially given the absurdly vast reach of the Shadow Thieves. Ever read Cloak and Dagger? The Shadow Thieves are spread far and wide through Faerun; it's hardly inconceivable that a rogue wouldn't end up working for both guilds. Moreover, you'll note that a character doesn't actually need to be a member of the Shadowmasters of Telflamm to take the PrC; he just needs to be from Thesk. (What's interesting, of course, is how the region requirement would play out in 3.5, since it's much more relaxed in 3.0.)

So here's the story: A wild elf of the Great Dale (right where Thesk is, after all) sets out into the wider world to seek fame and fortune; a cheerful, curious, good-hearted adventurer. He eventually travels to the lands of eastern Tethyr, Amn, the Shining Plains, or even Baldur's Gate, where he finds a good living for his rogue skills. But he needs to operate, thus requiring the collusion of the Shadow Thieves. Due to his skills at fast-talking, he gains himself a membership and starts rising rapidly in the guild. With this advancement in such an evil organization, however, comes a sort of moral lassitude: The first step toward corruption. The character becomes more reckless and less empathic, becoming CN. He begins to look for ways to advance his power within the guild, and his deadliness in combat, by any means, fair or foul. He recalls the stories of Telflamm told him in his boyhood, and travels back to Telflamm to take the ritual of shadow-walking and become, after long training, a telflammar shadowlord, a deadly creature of darkness. All the while, he serves his guild loyally, feeding the Shadow Thieves back information about the Shadowlords and helping to work toward the day when there will be a Silhouette (sort of an over-guildmaster) of the Eastern Reaches. Yet all the while, oblivious to the darkness in his soul, he is training more and more to kill, plain and simple.

Seems like a fun character to play, if you ask me.

 

[Thanee]

As are the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC, ...

That was actually the Shadowlord I meant.

And I didn't just mean FR specific, but rather using mechanics that do not exist in regular D&D as a prerequisite (regional feats).

Bye
Thanee

 

[ruleslawyer]

Yup, but why is this a problem, Thanee? I suggested an FR build, using rules from FR. It's not an FR/DL combo, or even an FR/Planar Handbook combo; the race, template, and classes are all from the same setting, and I put up a backstory that I think is pretty convincing, too. (Mind you, the regional feat mechanic in UE is different from the mechanic in PGtF, so you'd probably just have to rule that the requirement is actually Region: Thesk rather than the way it's stated in UE.) He wanted a powerhouse melee rogue; what kind of character he wants to roleplay is up to him.

 

[Darklone]

Answering my own question, heh

Just read the FAQ, and it seems pretty clear that this combo does work. Pretty damn powerful for 27k and a +1 bonus (minimum cost 4k per weapon)

I'm surprised. Last state of the art IIRC was that ghost touch does not help you to hit while you're ethereal, just into the other direction?

 

[sledged]

Four feats (including Dodge and Mobility, which at least could be used to also get Spring Attack *shrug*)

I've found that Dodge and Mobility are prerequisites for a lot of my favorite feats and PrCs, so I have a tendancy to give them to all my high dex characters anyway.

for the ability to make a single sneak attack against a larger foe each round as a full round action?

Talk about a waste of feats there.

Ack!! You wound me! This from the person who suggested Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple for a wildshaping druid.

Just take Improved Feint, it's much, much cheaper and can be used on equal-sized and smaller opponents, too. And Combat Expertise (the prerequisite) isn't too bad either.

When I first read this, I thought "Improved Feint just might be the better way to go!" Then I read how feint works. Improved Feint is cheaper than Improved Low Blow, but it has more limitations. First, it requires a bluff check, so it's not guaranteed to work. Next, the opponent gets to add his BAB to his sense motive check, in addtion, there's a -4 penalty against nonhumanoids (which includes aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, outsiders, and vermin), and another -8 penalty against creatures whose intelligence is 1 or 2 (all animals and many magical beasts). Lastly, it doesn't work at all against creatures with no intelligence score.

If you're staying in urban areas or primarily going up against humanoid tribes, Improved Feint is the way to go. However, if you're going off to adventure and explore parts unknown, don't be surprised if you keep having to apply a -12 penalty to your bluff checks. I'd rather be guaranteed to have my sneak attack added to my weapon damage against a 52-hp owlbear and not a 4-hp kobold, than to have a slim or not-so-slim possibility of adding it against both the owlbear and the kobold. Besides, a simple reduce person spell adds one more size category to what opponents can be subject to the feat, and high dex rogues gain a fair amount of benefit from a reduce person spell anyway. Since this character is an elf, one level of wizard is neither going to set him back too far nor slow down his XP gain.

 

[Malin Genie]

How about just a straight Rog16?

Five feats: Weapon Focus (Shortsword), Weapon Finesse (Shortsword), TWF, ITWF, Improved Initiative. Take Crippling Strike as one of your three Rogue special abilities (Slippery Mind and Improved Evasion are also nice abilties, but not so relevant to the Sneak Attack discussion.)

Wear a Cloak of Displacement - you won't be able to get your AC up high enough to matter against big foes, so just make half their attacks miss.

If you surprise an opponent and win initiative you can get half a dozen Sneak Attacks in before they can even act (and with II and, say, 28 Dex based on starting Dex 18 with racial modifier, 4 stat raises and a +6 item you'll have a +13 Initiative modifier....) Each Sneak Attack can deal 1d6 + strangth + magic + 8d6, or about 35-40 points of damage + 1 point of Str damage per strike.

You will need flanking partners to deliver Sneak Attacks against opponents who are aware of you, but other party members or even summoned creatures can serve that purpose.

 

[Pielorinho]

The rog/druid idea is interesting. My suggestions for this path:
-Druid 9/Monk1/Rog6
-Feats include Natural Spell
Starting Stats: S8 D10 (8) C16(18) W18 I8 Ch 8
Extra ability points added to wisdom

This is a crappy build if you're playing all the way through, but if you're minmaxing a sixteenth-level character, it's pretty great under most circumstances.

You're going to be switching to tiger form for pretty much all your battles, so your physical stats don't matter except for Con (and even Con is debatable, but I believe it does matter). You'll want to keep barkskin up, and have a mage friend cast mage armor on you (or invest enough in UMD that you can pop off charges from a wand of mage armor). Use a Bead of Karma when casting your buff spells, and your AC in tiger form will be 14+6 wisdom + 5 barkskin +4 armor=29, before any deflection or sacred bonuses come into play.

Cast Greater Magic Fang thrice--on each claw and on your mouth--for a +3 bonus to attacks and damage (using Karma Bead, natch).

Why are you ninth level? Why, that's so you can cast Animal Growth on yourself. +4 attacks and damage.

If I'm reading the rules right, you'll be attacking at +11Bab -2 size +10 str +3 GMF, or +22/+22/+17, for 2d6+13/2d6+13/2d8+8 damage. Flank your enemy, and add 3d6, or ~10 damage, to each of those attacks. Your animal-growthed animal companion will be more than willing to help you with that.

Hit-point-wise, you'll be fine. 164 HP on average (132 w/o Animal Growth active) is nothing to sneer at.

Of course, you'll probably want to have some items beyond the bead of karma, which will make this combination even better.

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

Yup, but why is this a problem, Thanee?

No problem, really, only if he doesn't play in the FR.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I've found that Dodge and Mobility are prerequisites for a lot of my favorite feats and PrCs, so I have a tendancy to give them to all my high dex characters anyway.

Spring Attack and Shadowdancer? Or is there anything else? At least I can't really think of anything right now.

Ack!! You wound me! This from the person who suggested Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple for a wildshaping druid.

What's wrong with Improved Grapple?

Improved Feint is cheaper than Improved Low Blow, but it has more limitations.

Yep, that's about right.

If you need Dodge/Mobility for something else (the feats themselves are pretty much useless for Rogue IMHO), and you fight larger opponents a lot (tho with Reduce Person (or just being a Halfling), that would happen a lot, of course), then Low Blow is good, but I think that are pretty strong limitations already.

And even with the negative modifiers, the Bluff checks are not that hard to do, unless the opponent has an Int of 2.

Of course you could also just use Quicker than the Eye, which is totally superior, but only printed in a 3.0 book.

And don't forget, that this ability is only useful if you cannot flank or have other ways to deny your target the Dex bonus to AC (like a ring of blinking).

Bye
Thanee