Characters with Pounce! ALSO: Fair price for Pounce?

[Runestar]

My point is that there is a HUGE swing in the requirements needed to get this ability. So now I am wondering, what exactly is Pounce worth in terms of feats? How powerful is it?

My guess is that wotc themselves can't decide what exactly it should be worth either. Pounce was initially an epic feat (implying that it was originally believed to be very powerful), now a class feature (so it is not that game breaking as previously envisioned?).

One feat, Martial Study, gives access to the maneuver Pouncing Strike, usable once per encounter.

You would have to be lv18 to qualify though, and it requires 2 more tiger claw maneuvers, meaning you need to burn yet another 2 feats unless you multiclass in warblade or swordsage.

 

[Dandu]

Meh, moot point considering the ranger has access to it via a spell.

 

[Freakohollik]

I'd say pounce is not particularly strong. Two reasons. First off, of the iterative attacks, only the second one has a chance. Your second off hand attack may have a chance if you're a two weapon fighter. But if you're going for a strategy that revolves around a lot of hits, rapid shot and many shot are better. Second, there much better ways to optimize your charge. They usually revolve around max power attack, leap attack, and some way to offset the attack penalty.

All that said, unless you foresee some ridiculous power gaming abuse of pounce, just let him have it.

For the sake of completeness, the Lion of Talsid PrC from the Book of Exalted Deeds gives you pounce. It is probably the least optimal method of getting it.

 

[akbearfoot]

I don't agree with the notion that giving melee characters Full attacks nearly 100% of the time is remotely balanced. I don't really think it should be an epic feat...but IMO it's worth at least 5x what a ring of evasion is worth in terms of power.

For that matter, the 'only the first iterative has a chance' concept. Since 3e has been around that has rarely ever been my experience. Melee oriented characters just never seem to have trouble hitting if they have halfway decent buffs. Granted, it is still weak compared to a no spells barred game where there is no common sense restrictions on spells from the SpC/splatbooks. But I would like to think most games have some measure of balance applied to them.


Lion totem barbarian is probably the single most abusive thing in the book it was printed in. If not the worst thing, then it is certainly in the top few.


The ranger spell is limited by both the rangers very small allotment of spells each day, and the fact that it also consumes his swift action every time he uses it, thus limiting item activations, other spells, etc...

I'll make an assumption that the character who the OP is considering the ability for has taken the 2-W fighting tree...actually I think they have to have them in order to have 2-W rend. And they are at least to the point where they are at 3 attacks a round. So thats 6 with a 2-w user. That means that you're giving them an ability that will frequently give +5 attacks, all at a +2 bonus to hit. That isn't even considering feat synergies like 2-w rend.

If you think pouncing is weak, then go look at some of the pounce builds over in the character OP boards at wizards.

My opinion is to not just hand-wave some pouncelike ability in for free/cheap. At the very least it should cost more more than 1 feat, or somewhere in the neighborhood of 75-100k gold. Which would represent a very large portion of a 12-13th level characterd wealth. And would still be WAY worth it.

 

[Dandu]

I don't agree with the notion that giving melee characters Full attacks nearly 100% of the time is remotely balanced.

There are a lot of ways to interfere with charging. Concealment, difficult terrain, etc. It's hardly giving them full attacks 100% of the time.

Granted, it is still weak compared to a no spells barred game where there is no common sense restrictions on spells from the SpC/splatbooks PHB.

Fixed it for you. Even in core, a caster has many more tricks than melee, who are basically restricted to hitting things and using skills, if the aren't a Fighter. Why don't we at least let them hit things well since that's basically all they can do?

But I would like to think most games have some measure of balance applied to them.

Balance depends on the game. Pounce fits right in with a medium high to high powered setting.

I'll make an assumption that the character who the OP is considering the ability for has taken the 2-W fighting tree...actually I think they have to have them in order to have 2-W rend. And they are at least to the point where they are at 3 attacks a round. So thats 6 with a 2-w user. That means that you're giving them an ability that will frequently give +5 attacks, all at a +2 bonus to hit. That isn't even considering feat synergies like 2-w rend.

What's the damage on those attacks?

 

[Herzog]

What's the damage on those attacks?

That depends on the build....

I've just completed a TWF Barbarian 1(Pounce)/Ranger 4/Scout 4/Tempest 1 build that, with a 40 foot charge, has a:

AC of 23
attacks at +14/+14/+9/+9

and each attack does 5d6 damage.

assuming all his attacks hit, that's 20d6 damage in one round, each round he can make that (at least 20') charge. That's a fair amount of damage output for a 10th lvl character.

However, when I compare that to the Druid/Barbarian with his (augmented) strength of 22, full power attack, and greatclub, that (from memory) manages to do 1d10+56 damage (because of some nasty weapon augmentation from the spell compendium), what are we talking about?

Two Weapon Fighters (compared to Two Handed Weapon fighers) get shafted big time because of the way strength bonuses are handled and Power Attack works.

It requires a build like this to make TWF work.

And yes, Pounce at lvl 1 without having to further invest into barbarian may look kind of cheap. But you give up the (untyped) fast movement.

 

[Runestar]

Two Weapon Fighters (compared to Two Handed Weapon fighers) get shafted big time because of the way strength bonuses are handled and Power Attack works.

You are also forgetting that depending on the foe, dr may apply up to 4 times. 5d6 averages 18 damage, dr10 easily halves your damage output if you lack the appropriate weapon.

Conversely, chargers or ToB martial adepts typically make 1 attack per round for massive damage, so dr applies only once. When I have 1 attack dealing 50+ damage, dr10 isn't that great a deal.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think the ability to attack multiple times is worth something more than the numbers, though. If you only attack once and miss, and the combat only lasts ~3 rounds, as IME they tend to, then that REALLY sucks as a player.

 

[the Jester]

Just a side note on Dire Charge (the epic feat)- it actually only works the first round of combat.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ditto for Catfolk Pounce, which requires playing an LA +1 race that doesn't even get a str boost.

Pouncing Charge maneuver requires a level 9 Swordsage or Warblade, or level 18 and ~3 feats.

Druids and rangers have to wait till level 5+ and expend a daily resource (spell) to do it each time. Druids can also spend a feat for the privalege *laughing* of expending a Wildshape usage each time they want to Pounce. Lion of Talisid gets it around level 12-13 (I always enter level 9 so I have large wildshape first), and is a very specific build, requiring some exalted feats and basically designed solely for a VoP druid.

Aside from the broken (and 3.0) template, Lion totem Barbarian is the only one who gets pounce nearly that quickly and easily. I had a houserule thread a while back trying to think of ways ot balance it, since I don't mind a barbarian getting it from the start. I just don't like how cheaply easy it is to dip and get it.