Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Kramodlog]

You counter that it is not a sign of influence? Okay to each their own

I'm saying that if you believe that making and distributing Christian films are signs of Christian influence in the US, than it should apply to Muslim films too. Shouldn't your logic apply to all?

Are their a lot of Muslims films being made in the US, compared to Christian films? What about their respective revenues?

 

[Sadras]

More as a matter of fact. To say that all Muslim countries act like Saudi Arabia is just proof of ignorance, just like saying all Muslims approve of the death the penalty for apostacy.

I appreciate the enthusiasm you display here, but I did not say all Muslim countries act like Saudi Arabia OR that all Muslims approve of the death penalty for apostacy. What I did say was:

[QUOTE = Sadras] (snip)....I don't believe Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Shintuism or Buddhism speak about apostacy in the same manner that Islam does.[/QUOTE]

A nice personal crusade.

Thank you, I think so too.

When it is Muslims being critiqued it is good, when it is you that is bad?

Nope.

That is more because you didn't really pay attention to what I actually said

Pot. Kettle. Black (refer above)

about Republicans.

It is like you saying it means that I hate Christians when I say islamophobes exagerate the influence of Muslims in Western countries. Gross misrepresentation or gross misunderstanding.

No, now you are mixing issues again. And if you read my initial post again maybe things might become clearer. I said it is fine in the USA where the numbers are trivial but when they become significant then it is only human nature for this phobia to grow. You might want to ask the Arabs of Palestine how they felt when the Jews started settling in now, Israel.

That is an interesting leap in logic right there. So, if I have an issue with what you say, it is not because I find what you say to be innaccurate and I like conversations to use accurate facts? It is because I defend Islam? So, if you say Iran killed a million Jews in 1999 because the Qoran demanded it to herald the new millenium, and I say that wasn't true, I'd be defending Islam, not pointing out a frabrication? Interesting logic indeed.

You mentioned I was generalising about said Muslim world but then never provided any information that I was inaccurate after several posts. Christianity has through various religious figureheads like the Pope and other religious leaders spoken about its wrongdoings and apologised. That is a fact! In fact the Pope even apologised to the Christian Orthodox Church for the Schism. Please can you point me to a large body of the Islam world that has accepted the Armenian Plight, The Copts of Egypt, The Zoroastrians Persecution, The atrocities in the Hindu Kush valley....

That islamophobes exagerate the influence of Islam in Western countries? It is pretty clear. And it is pretty clear that you haven't given any solid arguments to refute that.

One could have easily laughed at the Palestinian 'Jewophobes' in 1935-1945 in Palestine, saying that their fears were irrational. Hindsight.

Do you think that entire European Governments exaggerate the influence of Islam in their countries by altering the immigration policies? You do know it is really in an attempt to preserve their culture and heritage. Perhaps that is not a solid argument for people across the Atlantic. I can understand that point of view, since I too live in a mixed salad country - but that doesn't mean the fear is completely irrational.

 

[Ryujin]

You mentioned I was generalising about said Muslim world but then never provided any information that I was inaccurate after several posts. Christianity has through various religious figureheads like the Pope and other religious leaders spoken about its wrongdoings and apologised. That is a fact! In fact the Pope even apologised to the Christian Orthodox Church for Schism. Please can you point me to a large body of Islam world that has accepted the Armenian Plight, The Copts of Egypt, The Zoroastrians Persecution, The atrocities in the Hindu Kush valley....

In Islam there really is no single leader of a sect, so there is no one to speak in such a way. I have, however, heard various individual Imams, speak on such matters.

 

[Sadras]

In Islam there really is no single leader of a sect, so there is no one to speak in such a way. I have, however, heard various individual Imams, speak on such matters.

I am very much aware of that, but having a few Imams talk instead of an entire muslim body expressing about the plight of a people or culture is just not good enough for me. When they want to or need to, Muslims ban together and make a fuss about something. Let us not forget Muslims have various religious governing bodies and societies within countries.

 

[Ryujin]

I am very much aware of that, but having a few Imams talk instead of an entire muslim body expressing about the plight of a people or culture is just not good enough for me. When they want to or need to, Muslims ban together and make a fuss about something. Let us not forget Muslims have various religious governing bodies and societies within countries.

As I said, there isn't really an "entire Muslim body" to speak in such a way. You have a few organizations, like the Muslim Canadian Congress, who speak but they are tiny by comparison to something like The Roman Catholic Church or The Church of England.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As I said, there isn't really an "entire Muslim body" to speak in such a way. You have a few organizations, like the Muslim Canadian Congress, who speak but they are tiny by comparison to something like The Roman Catholic Church or The Church of England.

...or the Methodists, or the Southern Baptist Convention...or Westboro Baptist Church.

Simple fact is, even when you have billions of people under one umbrella, it will be difficult to get one unified voice on any issue.

Believe me: if you think you've seen "all Muslims" react to something, you haven't. Remember the videos of Muslims reacting with joy to the events of 9/11? Many people think that this was representative of the entire Islamic world. In reality, even though there may have been some celebrations, those images came only from a part of Pakistan. The public reactions of the rest of the Islamic world- even those of dictators and known terrorists*- were far more sympathetic:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks#Islamic_world









* Yassir Arafat was visibly shaken and pale, for instance.

 

[Ryujin]

...or the Methodists, or the Southern Baptist Convention...or Westboro Baptist Church.

Simple fact is, even when you have billions of people under one umbrella, it will be difficult to get one unified voice on any issue.

Believe me: if you think you've seen "all Muslims" react to something, you haven't. Remember the videos of Muslims reacting with joy to the events of 9/11? Many people think that this was representative of the entire Islamic world. In reality, even though there may have been some celebrations, those images came only from a part of Pakistan. The public reactions of the rest of the Islamic world- even those of dictators and known terrorists*- were far more sympathetic:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks#Islamic_world

* Yassir Arafat was visibly shaken and pale, for instance.

Yup, and even relatively large groups within the catch-alls like Islam and Christianity are only a fraction of the whole. Do we take what a few Wahabi extremists say as representative of the entire swath of Islam? No more so than we accept what the Westboro Baptist Church says when picketing military funerals as representative of all Christians.

Such leaders are quite aware of what could happen to their little corner of the world if America's military might takes notice of them and doesn't like what it sees.

 

[Kramodlog]

I appreciate the enthusiasm you display here, but I did not say all Muslim countries act like Saudi Arabia OR that all Muslims approve of the death penalty for apostacy. What I did say was:

[QUOTE = Sadras] (snip)....I don't believe Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Shintuism or Buddhism speak about apostacy in the same manner that Islam does.

[/quote]Yes, I know, but when I say that you're lumping Islam into one homogenous body, it is because you present things as if Islam, thus Muslims, thinks the same about apostacy. If you agree there are many Islams, why talk as if their is one view of apostacy?

I'm willing to bet that the standard for apostacy you use is Saudi Arabia. Certainly not Albania, because if Albania was used, apostacy wouldn't be a problem for Islam, right?

Thank you, I think so too.

Went right over your head.

Nope.

And yet you critic me for critiquing you, right after you say critiquing the Muslim world is your personal mission. Double standards, as you put yourself above critics while critic others.

Pot. Kettle. Black (refer above)

Ok, so show me again where I say I'm against Christianity?

No, now you are mixing issues again. And if you read my initial post again maybe things might become clearer. I said it is fine in the USA where the numbers are trivial but when they become significant then it is only human nature for this phobia to grow.

And it moved past that a while back, when you had to prove Muslims were bad.

This is what I answered to your position on fear of immigrants when they grow to big:

Fearing what you discribed is islamophobia by definition. No Western country is facing that scenario. It isn't a rational fear. Yet it is the fear behind many critics of Islam in the Western world.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...vs-Persecuted-Christians/page22#ixzz3oSNi5GW2

You didn't refute, but then try to make it about Muslims refugees in Europe and how it was rational to fear them.

LOL. True USA and Canada are far from the mess they caused in the middle-east and with the Arab Spring. Europe is bearing all the brunt. I wonder if their fear is deemed rational or don't you consider Europe as Western?

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...vs-Persecuted-Christians/page22#ixzz3oSNzVDZ6

So then I countered by saying it wasn't rational with this:

You think the tide of refugees is problematic for Europe because it is mostly composed Muslims? If that is the case, I'd say that is an irrational fear of Islam right there. The refugee crisis would still be problematic if it was composed of Buddhists or Hindus.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...vs-Persecuted-Christians/page22#ixzz3oSOEPmpS

And you agreed:

Agree,

But you had to make the debate about something else, cause it is very important for you that we should fear Muslims or that they are bad, so out of nowhere comes apostacy.

but I don't believe Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Shintuism or Buddhism speak about apostacy in the same manner that Islam does.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...vs-Persecuted-Christians/page23#ixzz3oSOLVFVR

So if we moved past your initial comment about fear of immigrants, it is because you moved away from it.

You might want to ask the Arabs of Palestine how they felt when the Jews started settling in now, Israel.

Do you consider that Western countries are being colonized by Muslims?

You mentioned I was generalising about said Muslim world but then never provided any information that I was inaccurate after several posts.

I need to prove that Muslims countries apply Islamic principales differently and that their are differences in interpretation of the Qur'an depending on which branch of Islam we are talking about? Really?

Christianity has through various religious figureheads like the Pope and other religious leaders spoken about its wrongdoings and apologised. That is a fact! In fact the Pope even apologised to the Christian Orthodox Church for the Schism.
Please can you point me to a large body of the Islam world that has accepted the Armenian Plight, The Copts of Egypt, The Zoroastrians Persecution, The atrocities in the Hindu Kush valley....

As [MENTION=27897]Ryujin[/MENTION] said, there are lots of Imams and Muslims who spoke on such matters. But as you said to him, there aren't enough for you. There will never be enough for you.

One could have easily laughed at the Palestinian 'Jewophobes' in 1935-1945 in Palestine, saying that their fears were irrational. Hindsight.

So, if you compare Europe to Palestine, is it because you believe Muslims are organized in the colonisation of Europe, like Jews were organized in the colonization of Palestine?

Do you think that entire European Governments exaggerate the influence of Islam in their countries by altering the immigration policies? You do know it is really in an attempt to preserve their culture and heritage.

Unlike you, I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories. I'm not sure what is that "entire European Governments" you are talking about, but I do know that it is some politicians and political parties that exagerate the influence of Islam in Europe. Islamophobia pays.

As for manipulating immigration policies to foster fear, that is rather colorful. What else was decided at ShadowCon?

Perhaps that is not a solid argument for people across the Atlantic.

Or rational people.

I can understand that point of view, since I too live in a mixed salad country - but that doesn't mean the fear is completely irrational.

So, if it is just a bit rational, that means you believe Muslims are taking over Europe just a bit, right?

 

[Ryujin]

For reference with respect to Muslims speaking out, I would reference the Muslim Canadian Congress.

 

[Umbran]

In Islam there really is no single leader of a sect, so there is no one to speak in such a way. I have, however, heard various individual Imams, speak on such matters.

As an example, from National Public Radio just this morning:

"As the military response to the Islamic State heats up, an ideological front is opening against the group. They're using social media to explain why ISIS' interpretation of the Koran is wrong."

Listen to the entire piece here:

http://www.npr.org/2015/10/13/44818...media-to-counter-isis-interpretation-of-koran