Cimmerian Armor?

[Water Bob]

Hey! What happened to the "Conan" tag???

In the Mongoose Conan RPG, the Barbarian class is obviously based on Cimmerian Barbarians (and possibly Vanir/Aesir Barbarians) rather than other barbarian types such as those in the Black Kingdoms or in the Pictish Wilds. I believe that there are tweaks to the class listed in other books (besides the core rulebook) that skew the class to a better description of those other barbarian types.

My question is about armor. It makes sense that in a game about Conan the Barbarian class would focus on his particular taste of barbarian. The class automaticaly provides Feats in all armor types, including Heavy Armor. In the game, heavy armor is Plate or a Scale Hauberk, or various combinations of mail and other types of armor (like a mail shirt and a breastplate or a mail hauberk and a brigandine coat).

Just how advanced is Cimmerian armor? Yes, we all know the Cimmerians create steel weapons, but do they make chainmail, too? Inferred by this rule in the game, the Cimmerians do. And, they must make plate, too.

I'm sure that some of the training a Cimmerian gets in Heavy Armor comes from thick, heavy winter clothing, when the warrior is decked out in a heavy bearskin and fighting for his life among the Vanir.

I have a bit of trouble thinking of a Cimmerian smith making a steel breastplate. I'm not sure about chainmail. I could go either way, on that one. But, my impression of Cimmerian smiths is that they provide heavy leather and boiled leather reinforced with metal as in studded leather, ringmail, mabe even splint. Certainly a brigadine coat.

But, according to the game, that's all Medium Armor.

So, set me straight. Do you think Cimmerian villages typically boast a heavy armorer that routinely produces solid breastplates and flexible mail for the warriors?

 

[Melhaic]

I would say yes to mail and no to plate. The real work cognates for the Cimmerians and Aesir/Vanir are Celts and vikings, respectively. Neither of those say "Plate wearers" to me. Not to mention taking care of plate in the wilderness being (in theory) a big pain in the ass.

 

[Dioltach]

I see no reason why they shouldn't have plate mail. The Cimmerians were close neighbours of the Aquilonians and fought against them, so they'd know of it. Unlike real-world Vikings, they weren't sailors (quite aside from the real-world availability of plate in the Early Middle Ages). As skilled blacksmiths and warriors, there's no reason why they shouldn't make and wear plate.

 

[Derren]

Plate does not fit the Conan setting at all. It was designed to counter piercing weapons like armor and bullets, both which do not play much of a role in Conan. Against swords mail is fine.

 

[Water Bob]

Plate does not fit the Conan setting at all. It was designed to counter piercing weapons like armor and bullets, both which do not play much of a role in Conan. Against swords mail is fine.

Maybe not full suits of plate as we think of during the Middle Ages, but some version of it and certainly breastplates are available in some parts of the world during the Hyborian Age. Howard, himself, wrote of it in one of my favorite Conan stories, Black Colossus.

The army was on the move at last. There were the knights, gleaming in richly wrought plate-armor, colored plumes waving above their burnished sallets. Their steeds, caparisoned with silk, lacquered leather and gold buckles, caracoled and curvetted as their riders put them through their paces. The early light struck glints from lance points that rose like a forest above the array, their pennons flowing int he breeze. Each knight wore a lady's token, a glove, scarf or rose, bound to his helmet or fastened to this sword-belt. They were the chivalry of Khoraja, five hundred strong, led by Count Thespides, who, men said, aspired to the hand of Yasmela herself.

A "sallet" is a helm certainly associated with full plate armor. Though, in my own mind's eye, I prefer to think of Hyborian Age plate as something a bit different looking than traditional western Dark Ages plate.

A sallet...

Then, later, in the same story, Howard describes Conan wearing full plate...

At her command they brought harness to replace Conan's chain-mail--gorget, sollerets, cuirass, pauldrons, jambes, cuisses, and sallet. When Yasmela again drew the curtains, a Conan in burnished steel stood before his audience. Clad in the plate-armor, vizor lifted and dark face shadowed b the black plumes that nodded above his helmet, there was a grim impressiveness about him that even Thespides grudgingly noted."

For those who argue that this is, indeed, Medieval style plate, it's hard to dispute them.

 

[Water Bob]

As far as the Cimmerians go, here's where my head is at right now. But, I'm willing to be swayed by an intelligent argument.

I was thinking about Medium Armor plus some heavy, thick, winter clothing the equivalent to being in Heavy Armor. Movement might be just as restrictive even though the better protection isn't there.

So, say, a scale corselet plus a long, heavy bear skin cloak, plus the usual thick winter clothing, makes a Cimmerian proficient just as if he were wearing a breastplate even though the character is only benefitting from Medium Armor. Then, if/when the character ever does get his hand on a breastplate, adjustment is nothing because of what he's used to with the winter garb.

What about chain? I'm not sure. Do you think the Cimmerians capable or creating chain mail? Or, do you think all of their armor is leather based?

 

[Melhaic]

Sure, a Cimmerian could get plate, and probably wear it well. I just don't think it is being manufactured in Cimmerian villages. The money/resources/demand just isn't there. To use the real world example, plate certainly was in use in 1400, but wasn't made or worn often in the Scottish Highlands.

 

[Water Bob]

Whoops! Thread is moot! I mixed up the class. Been too close to it lately, I guess. The game does not give proficiency to Barbarians for Heavy Armor.

Wow. I can't believe I made that mistake.

But, I did.

 

[gamerprinter]

A sallet isn't Dark Age armor (Dark Ages 200 AD - 1000 AD, more or less) rather a sallet is 15th century armor (1401 - 1499), from the last century armor was widely used. Breastplate was certainly available in dark ages and in the Roman period previous to it. A bronze version was available to Greek warriors in the classical period. However, I wouldn't think a Cimmerian would ever create a breastplate armor, as it would be too cumbersome to a barbarian warrior. Studded leather, perhaps even scale mail, if not only chain mail as the primary armor that might be worn by a Hyborean Age barbarian, at least in my opinion. I don't picture barbarians ever wearing the equivalent of full plate armor.

 

[Desdichado]

Maybe not full suits of plate as we think of during the Middle Ages, but some version of it and certainly breastplates are available in some parts of the world during the Hyborian Age. Howard, himself, wrote of it in one of my favorite Conan stories, Black Colossus.

Indeed. Plus, the historical use of breastplates (at least, if not an entire plate armor suit) is ancient--archaic Greeks wore them; they're referenced in the Bible--I mean, the idea that it wouldn't be available in a Hyborian mileu is extremely hard to support. Even if we're talking more about something like muscle cuirasses or something like that rather than Conquistador style breastplates--which yeah, were based on the notion of deflecting lances and bullets. But the idea of a breastplate requiring firearms first? Not true in the least.

What about chain? I'm not sure. Do you think the Cimmerians capable or creating chain mail? Or, do you think all of their armor is leather based?

Absolutely capable. Since the Cimmerians were based on Iron Age celts, who are generally credited with inventing chain mail and using it heavily, I'd be hard pressed to think of any reason why the Cimmerians wouldn't be manufacturing it.