Cityscape ToC

[JustKim]

Here in Germany, we have the phenomenon that many areas ("Kulturlandschaft") that have been altered by humans are actually more diverse in the species that inhabit them it had been the case before.

In the US this is simply called an introduction of nonnative species. It is not something to be proud of because of the unforeseen consequences introducing a new life form into an ecosystem has. I don't know what's going on in Germany that this could be encouraged, but in the US the ecosystem has been dealt a tremendous blow by human introduction of kudzu vine, purple loosestrife, tamarisk, hydrilla, zebra mussel, fire ant, and Asian swamp eel among others.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

In the US this is simply called an introduction of nonnative species. It is not something to be proud of because of the unforeseen consequences introducing a new life form into an ecosystem has. I don't know what's going on in Germany that this could be encouraged, but in the US the ecosystem has been dealt a tremendous blow by human introduction of kudzu vine, purple loosestrife, tamarisk, hydrilla, zebra mussel, fire ant, and Asian swamp eel among others.

Actually, what has happened has nothing to do with nonnative species - those species existed all along in Germany, but had much less living space before the cultivation of land began. The through mixture of terrain and vegetaion enabled.

Part of this is simply the result of different settlement patterns. Compare a farming area in the American Midwest with a rural area near where I grew up. Note that both are at the same scale. The former has giant fields with monocultures, while the latter has lots of tiny plots with small spaces of different vegetation in them. This allows a large variety of plants and animals to thrive - far more than the forest that used to cover these lands (though Germany still has a vast forest cover - probably more than most industrialized countries except Japan.

All this was a historic accident for the most part - patterns of inheritance dating back to the Middle Ages - but today the importance of this pattern was recognized as being important for the environment, and active steps have been taken to preserve it.

And a certain type of druid might do the same. Heck, back in my last Forgotten Realms campaign, I played a druid of Chauntea - who is a goddess of agriculture, among other things...

 

[Felon]

You know, folks here really should stick to dealing with the argument, rather than trying to characterize the speakers or their arguments broadly.

Wasn't characterizing anyone, just saying what the thread in general was reminiscent of.

 

[Felon]

Pretty sure that's a Joanie Mitchell song that Hynde (and a million others) have covered.

I was making a reference to The Pretenders song "My City Was Gone". Are you thinking of "Paved Paradise"?

 

[Felon]

And there is ample evidence that this is possible - even in "standard" fantasy. Witness Silverymoon of the Forgotten Realms - or the innumerable elven communities that exist in woodland areas.

I was actually going to cite Silverymoon as a limited scenario where druids would play a part in a social experiment to create a habitat for humans that didn't displace nature, but I see you beat me to it. The thing there is that no "urban druid" class variant is necessary, because the standard portfolio of class features works. The city did the adapting, not the class.

 

[DMH]

Yes, a year from now it may still be a (somewhat withered-er) banana, but a thousand years from now it will be quite a bit closer to soil - even without bacteria. Given a million years simple erosion and trace radiation from space (and more so from the sun) will eventually reduce that banana peel to dust - which is close enough to soil for my taste.

Soil and dust are two very different things- the former is alive and has sand, silt and/or clay and the latter is silt.

 

[GreatLemur]

The usage of the word "postmodern" is intentional because this discussion has all the earmarks of postmodern discourse by self-avowed intellectuals. Basically, start by deconstructing the status quo, and then proclaim a radical new paradigm, which generally just amounts to equivocating everything as being equal to everything else. And above all, remember that nothing's bad, it's merely different

So are rats and cockroaches "bad"?

So, throw away that old dogma about cities displacing forests--what does Henry David Thoreau know? He's not as smart as us; he's just some effeminate poet. You're not only more manly than him, you're more enlightened too. Instead of a forest "displaced" or "destroyed", let's say that cities are a forest transformed, a new aspect of nature. Of course, all the big wild animals have been killed, all the big trees and rocks have been flattened or ripped out, and the remaining growing things have been pushed into little pockets where they often turn into cesspools, but when someone belabors that point, we'll regard it as hidebound hair-splitting. After all, druids, in their divine wisdom, realize that bubonic plague is just another part of nature, and should be cherished and nourished s much as any waterfall, ancient oak, or bunny rabbit.

I think you're mistaking me for someone arguing that a city is ecologically identical to a forest. I'm only taking issue with your apparent assumption that certain certain animals are somehow less "natural" than others. You can run your campaign with the perfectly valid ruling that Druids are only around to protect the majestic elements of nature, certainly, but that's your campaign. Other folks' games--and objective reality--don't incorporate Thoreau's aesthetics into their natural laws.

 

[GreatLemur]

No it is not. At least not for a very long time. Billions of organisms, from bacteria to worms, are required to convert organic material to soil. Most of them are not present on a brick road, and the most you're likely to see is simple decay.

I'll certainly agree that environmental circumstances affect the rate at which dead matter is "reclaimed". In fact, a number of environments which are considerably more natural than cities are even less conducive to decomposition, such as deserts, tundra, and--ah, what the hell--deep space. ...Which ain't to say that anyone does--or should--allow Druids of deep space. (Spelljammer must have had something to say on this subject, and I wish I could remember it.)

A lot of campaigns probably allow desert Druids, though. I think a city generally has a more populous ecology per square mile than a desert does, but possibly not an equally complex ecology. So that'd be a reasonable ruling to allow desert Druids but not urban Druids. Similarly, you could always just state that an ecology has to remain in place and free of large-scale transformations for thousands of years before it builds up enough of an identity (for lack of a better term) to be considered a part of "nature" as far a druidic powers are concerned.

It's all down to precisely what you consider Druids to be about, really.

 

[DMH]

Here in Germany, we have the phenomenon that many areas ("Kulturlandschaft") that have been altered by humans are actually more diverse in the species that inhabit them it had been the case before. And certainly cities can be built to accomodate more complex ecosystems with more species than it would be usually the case.

That may be true is a few examples, but looking at the subject in a global sense, cities are bad for the local organism communities. Look at the dead spots in waters near cities- LA's was, as of 2 years ago, more than 400 square miles; Lake Erie's dead spots are getting larger and lasting longer; and then there is Hong Kong. Miami, by drawing groundwater far beyond recharge, is turning the soil salty as sea water seeps inland. And look at aquafers- the Ogalla (sp?) is just the best example of those collapsing from poor harvesting techniques.

And it doesn't even have to be cities- look at the erosion on the deltas that New Orleans and in Egypt due to soil retention by farmers on the floodplains of the rivers that feed them. A lot of people are going to be homeless in Egypt in the coming decades unless the Aswan is removed (and how likely is that?).

Now that I think about this, I find that nature worshipping druids definately have a place within urban areas- trying to abate these issues and problems.

 

[JustKim]

And look at aquafers- the Ogalla (sp?) is just the best example of those collapsing from poor harvesting techniques.

Ogallala (and aquifer ). I live on the Kansas tip of it, where farmers harvest the water simply because it's there, whether or not it's needed. The same machines water fields regularly whether or not they're even used, because the water is unregulated and costs nothing.

And on the subject of dead water, 150,000 lakes around the world are now dead as a result of acid rain, pollution and seawater seepage caused by humans. I know two-thirds of Germany's Black Forest has been destroyed by acid rain, so I imagine most of its lakes are also dead. I also know that enough pollution blows from West Germany to Norway to push the latter's pollution levels from clean to toxic. More than 90% of Norway's pollutants are blown in from West Germany and the UK. So while Germany may be making progress, it has significant problems.