Cityscape ToC

[Hawkshere]

Wow, this thread went all over the map.

On the Urban Druid subtopic, I don't have the Dragon article, and my first reaction apon seeing the term 'urban druid' was to roll my eyes. My natural disposition to the idea is very similar to Psion's. From a D&D perspective, 'urban druid' comes off to me as an oxymoron.

However, since I'm prepping an urban campaign (Ptolus) right now, I've been thinking a lot about reusing fun bits from Shadowrun in my D&D game. The longest running/surviving character in my SR2/3 campaign is a very cool Street Shaman. It occurs to me now that the street shaman idea from SR is a viable way to approach something like an urban druid.

I would be very interested in any class variant or other approach that captured the SR Street Shaman vibe for D&D.

 

[Nyeshet]

I haven't seen the book, but maybe the empty areas are parks?

No, there are just empty areas surrounding many of the buildings in the city maps.

Have you ever seen a map of a walled city from the high middle ages or early renaissance? This is true for even some of the larger middle ages cities, actually. Buildings fill the city. There is so little empty space that even the roads often are narrowed by the crush of the buildings. Only a few major avenues and a few plazas where such avenues meet are typically all that 'open' - and those were usually constructed after the fact of the city's rise - buildings torn down to make way for the new avenue or plaza.

Cities with walls do not just expand outside the walls - they also expand inside, until most empty space is gone. By the time the wall goes up, often the city is already 3/4 or more filled space. If the settlements outside the walls grow too large, perhaps another wall will go up. But again, by the time the second wall goes up the land within it is likely already at least 2/3 - 3/4 filled. Some of the oldest cities have three - four rings of these walls, showing their continuous growth.

Even without walls, the heart of the city will have a premium price on land - and as the city ages all that land will be bought, built over, etc. The end result is that the heart of the city is rather packed, while the outskirts are a bit sparse and spread out - rather like today where the heart of a major city is packed with skyscrapers and little land can be found for parks or even empty lots, while the outskirts of a city - the suburban area - is more spread out and has space for grass covered front yards, parks, etc.

And yet, if you look at the maps of the cities with in the book, they remain rather open and sparse uniformly everywhere. The heart of the city is no more filled with buildings than the extreme outskirts of the city. I can't glance at a map like that for even a second without thinking that something is notably wrong with each of those cities. I certainly would never use any of them - as they are, as they are mapped - in their current condition. Perhaps as ruins . . . .

Yes, that makes sense. If they are treated as ruins, it would make sense that many of the buildings might have collapsed, been overgrown, etc.

But these are currently stand - as supposedly thriving cities of different types - they make little sense. They are too un-crowded to be cities. I mean, they don't even have enough buildings to hold their stated population! Are half those residents living in tents in all the empty lots?

The book itself looks potentially interesting, but the maps are - in my opinion - poorly done and distracting due to their oddities.

 

[3catcircus]

Does it cover the same ground, or is it complimentary?

The problem is it *doesn't* really cover *anything* in any detail, other than those things that a decent DM can come up with on his own.

Frankly, between MMS:WE, the 1st/2nd edition Waterdeep boxed sets, the City of Greyhawk boxed set, the 3.5 City of Splendors, or *any* number of other existing products, there is no reason for Cityscape to even exist. As far as I can tell there isn't anything *new* here. Sure, some of the stuff may be presented in a new light, but there are no new concepts or ideas.

 

[Monkey King]

But these are currently stand - as supposedly thriving cities of different types - they make little sense. They are too un-crowded to be cities. I mean, they don't even have enough buildings to hold their stated population! Are half those residents living in tents in all the empty lots?

The book itself looks potentially interesting, but the maps are - in my opinion - poorly done and distracting due to their oddities.

I'd agree that this is poor mapmaking, because it doesn't reflect the likely conditions that lead to the growth of a walled city. I suspect the reason that so many fantasy maps display all this empty is space is because the designer and/or mapper is American, and has never seen a real medieval city plan, or even the oldest parts of Boston or NY.

Ruins is a good option possibility. I'd further suggest fire, war, or plague might have reduced the population in these cities, so that although they have a wall, their populations declined over time rather than growing. Rome and Mystras are both examples of cities that were abandoned slowly; Rome recovered.

 

[mikeschley]

I'd agree that this is poor mapmaking, because it doesn't reflect the likely conditions that lead to the growth of a walled city. I suspect the reason that so many fantasy maps display all this empty is space is because the designer and/or mapper is American, and has never seen a real medieval city plan, or even the oldest parts of Boston or NY.

I disagree. Empty spaces within city walls were a factor in some ancient constructions. Take a look at the links below. In a large number of ancient cities there was ample open space primarily towards the interior sides of city walls. I would suggest that these spaces were needed to protect the buildings inside from launched missles. The distance from the walls that the open spaces provided acted a buffer against siege engine assault and alleviated some of the concern about the effects of fire spreading within the city. Additionally they allowed for the mustering of troops and ones own catapults and trebuchets. Granted, the building densities may be sparser in some areas than you might expect, but there is no reason to assume that each and every medieval city was packed to the gills with buildings. Again, see the attached links. Anyway, some of the areas in the Cityscape maps are very dense with buildings. To each there own though. As far as the effort being a poor attempt at mapmaking, I respectfully disagree.

Florence, Italy
Frankfort, Germany
Calcutta, India