Wicht
Hero
Don't discount the fact that Clark also likes the people making Pathfinder and has a good working relationship with them.
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Pathfinder 1E Clark Peterson supporting Pathfinder?
- Thread starter ShinHakkaider
- Start date
Don't discount the fact that Clark also likes the people making Pathfinder and has a good working relationship with them.
mxyzplk
Explorer
Just a point of order, Clark was indeed the primary 4e/GSL 3pp cheerleader for quite a while. He was continually effusive in his praise of WotC, Scott, and Linae, and was workign with them (on phone calls, etc.) trying to understand and then later get changes to the GSL. It's all on these forums, here's a representative thread ("Orcus" is Clark).
New GSL Announcement - EN World: D&D / RPG News & Reviews
Bonus quotes: "I dont have new 3E stuff on my mind at all. I am firmly 4E. I was just going to provide that as an accomodation to fans. Thats all."
"I dont think anyone should be mad at Wizards either."
"It has become abundantly clear to me that some people are just going to complain and look a gift horse in the mouth. No matter what they get, it wont be enough. I dont endorse that thinking at all. This is not war on the OGL. Go, use the OGL all you want. Your ability to use the OGL today is no different than it was before this announcement and before you had a GSL. If you are happy using the OGL then you shouldnt care about not using the GSL."
He was so much a booster that when he finally decided not to sign the GSL when it first came out I called him out as a "flip-flopper" on my blog! (With love...)
No comment on the rest of the usual arguments, but pretending that Clark wasn't an avid banner-waver for 4e and the GSL is disingenuous (or just ignorant of the historical facts).
New GSL Announcement - EN World: D&D / RPG News & Reviews
Bonus quotes: "I dont have new 3E stuff on my mind at all. I am firmly 4E. I was just going to provide that as an accomodation to fans. Thats all."
"I dont think anyone should be mad at Wizards either."
"It has become abundantly clear to me that some people are just going to complain and look a gift horse in the mouth. No matter what they get, it wont be enough. I dont endorse that thinking at all. This is not war on the OGL. Go, use the OGL all you want. Your ability to use the OGL today is no different than it was before this announcement and before you had a GSL. If you are happy using the OGL then you shouldnt care about not using the GSL."
He was so much a booster that when he finally decided not to sign the GSL when it first came out I called him out as a "flip-flopper" on my blog! (With love...)
No comment on the rest of the usual arguments, but pretending that Clark wasn't an avid banner-waver for 4e and the GSL is disingenuous (or just ignorant of the historical facts).
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
First, you are misquoting him, or at least quoting out of context. He said "Pathfinder is the game that has the soul of what D&D was coupled with proper changes for the modern game." I think his passions lie in whatever system he decides to support through his publishing. That's what makes his company great. If WotC had loosened up the GSL to the point where he was comfortable I think you might have seen a similar quote from him stating something similar about 4E. And I don't think either comment would contradict the other.
ShinHakkaider
Adventurer
Okay, see now I knew I wasn't imagining things. It's good to see that I wasn't the only one who remembers this. Not that it changes anything but you really do see people mis remembering history around here (yours truly included).
DaveMage
Slumbering in Tsar
That's a really, really, really big thread!
Still, it shows the strength of EN World that so many publishers weighed in...
paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / Archives / Clark from Necromancer goes Pathfinder
In any event, I'd certainly classify Clark as one of (if not the biggest) non-WotC 4e cheerleaders in the time up to and just after launch - both in method, manner, and volume. And yes, that ended when he evidently decided that any further energy spent on changing the GSL would be futile.
I also think the 3pp who have been and/or are publishing content to be one of (if not the biggest) non WotC 4e cheerleaders in the time of and after the GSL launch - be they contracted free-lance writers (I am forever stuck with the term "prostilancer", thanks to a friendly exchange between Wil Upchurch and Sam Witt) or be they publishers.
And you know, both are banner-wavers, standard bearers, guidons, etc., just in different ways and one could argue to fill different needs present at their respective times.
Y'know, as a Pathfinder fan and someone who has a few Necromancer books on the shelf, none of those things makes me happy to see Clark possibly returning to the gaming fold in a capacity that they want to.
Someone being happy with what they're doing should and does trascend systems, IMO - whether it's a 4e writer, a Pathfinder writer, publishers, heck just gamers...remember, it's all about the game.
And I don't mean the 4e/Pathfinder game. Rather, it's just about the game.
And that's why I'm happy for Clark to find himself in a position to do what he enjoys in this hobby of ours.
In any event, I'd certainly classify Clark as one of (if not the biggest) non-WotC 4e cheerleaders in the time up to and just after launch - both in method, manner, and volume. And yes, that ended when he evidently decided that any further energy spent on changing the GSL would be futile.
I also think the 3pp who have been and/or are publishing content to be one of (if not the biggest) non WotC 4e cheerleaders in the time of and after the GSL launch - be they contracted free-lance writers (I am forever stuck with the term "prostilancer", thanks to a friendly exchange between Wil Upchurch and Sam Witt) or be they publishers.
And you know, both are banner-wavers, standard bearers, guidons, etc., just in different ways and one could argue to fill different needs present at their respective times.
Y'know, as a Pathfinder fan and someone who has a few Necromancer books on the shelf, none of those things makes me happy to see Clark possibly returning to the gaming fold in a capacity that they want to.
Someone being happy with what they're doing should and does trascend systems, IMO - whether it's a 4e writer, a Pathfinder writer, publishers, heck just gamers...remember, it's all about the game.
And I don't mean the 4e/Pathfinder game. Rather, it's just about the game.
And that's why I'm happy for Clark to find himself in a position to do what he enjoys in this hobby of ours.
BryonD
Hero
Just to throw in here, this is the typical kind of comment I recall clearly endorsing continuing to use the OGL post-GSL. Which I believe supports that he is being consistent on that.
He was a VERY avid banner-waver for "the current edition of D&D", "WotC", "Scott and Linae", and, yes, "the GSL".
But, I'm not at all certain you can stretch that to include "4E" specifically meaning the specifics of that rule set. Again, clearly early on he WAS supporting 4E itself, and strongly so. But I think that fell clearly under the whole "current edition" umbrella.
Even when he was still strongly supporting the GSL, he was talking about doing an alternate version of 4E that fixed it. So it doesn't follow that he loved the rule set itself.
To be clear, he is just one guy and his opinion is no more meanignful than mine, yours, or anyone else's. I do not see this as any kind of appeal to authority on "better gaming". But, it is the topic de moment, and I don't think your spin on it is quite right.
The thing to remember is that Clark was a lawyer and is now a judge. He takes a conservative view of licenses. He wanted to support 4E and the GSL.
But as a lawyer, he couldn't sign the GSL because it gave away too many of his rights.
As a lawyer, he wouldn't support retro-clones because he felt the risk was too high. The risk is using the OGL and SRD and combining it with ideas that are part of someone else's copyrighted material. Even if it could be defended in court, a retro-clone has enough doubt that a small company would be bancrupted in legal fees if Wizards decided to contest it. That's not a risk he is ever willing to take. That's the sort of thinking that probably makes him an excellent judge.
Pathfinder is not a retro-clone. It is building on the SRD using the OGL. The only copyrighted material it uses is clearly legal from the SRD. The other old-school material they use is either public domain mythology stuff, or other clearly OGL material like Tome of Horrors. Paizo is very careful not to come even close to infringement. As a lawyer, Clark sees no grounds for Wizards to bring suit against Paizo. I see no contradiction in this.
Clark also hasn't said he's starting a new company. He said he's going to do some writing. He's busy with his day job, but has a creative itch. I wouldn't be surprised to see a module he writes published either by Paizo or Frog God Games. Just as Monte cook retired the Malhavoc imprint but still wrote an adventure in the Pathfinder Modules line.
I look forward to seeing what he does. Just as I look forward to the Complete Tome of Horrors from Frog God.
But as a lawyer, he couldn't sign the GSL because it gave away too many of his rights.
As a lawyer, he wouldn't support retro-clones because he felt the risk was too high. The risk is using the OGL and SRD and combining it with ideas that are part of someone else's copyrighted material. Even if it could be defended in court, a retro-clone has enough doubt that a small company would be bancrupted in legal fees if Wizards decided to contest it. That's not a risk he is ever willing to take. That's the sort of thinking that probably makes him an excellent judge.
Pathfinder is not a retro-clone. It is building on the SRD using the OGL. The only copyrighted material it uses is clearly legal from the SRD. The other old-school material they use is either public domain mythology stuff, or other clearly OGL material like Tome of Horrors. Paizo is very careful not to come even close to infringement. As a lawyer, Clark sees no grounds for Wizards to bring suit against Paizo. I see no contradiction in this.
Clark also hasn't said he's starting a new company. He said he's going to do some writing. He's busy with his day job, but has a creative itch. I wouldn't be surprised to see a module he writes published either by Paizo or Frog God Games. Just as Monte cook retired the Malhavoc imprint but still wrote an adventure in the Pathfinder Modules line.
I look forward to seeing what he does. Just as I look forward to the Complete Tome of Horrors from Frog God.
This bolded above is also true for retroclones, and obviously so to anyone who has ever bothered to actually pick up and read OSRIC, LL or S&W.
I have read OSRIC and S&W. I do think they do a good job of keeping legal. I also think that it is a murky enough issue that even though it is probably defensible in court, Wizards could still bring a suit to bear that would crush any small company in legal fees. Justifiable or not, you'd need lawyers and copyright experts to explain to a jury what is and is not acceptable under current laws.
The fact that the conversation has gone on so long is proof that it is not obvious to everyone. Many of the people arguing about it probably haven't read the OGL.
My point was that Clark, as a legal professional, doesn't want to step into shades of gray. Even if that shade is barely even off white. And that's a perfectly acceptable choice for him to make. I myself would have no problem publishing stuff for S&W. I also respect Clark's choice not to.
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