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D&D 5E Class Analysis: Fighter and Bard

Cybit

First Post
PvP is meaningless, you don't need your spells to scale by character level, and War Caster cancels out Mage Slayer. Oh, and saves literally don't matter; Wall of Force immediately wins a 1-on-1 fight against any non-caster.

Actually, a monk will destroy a caster, wall of force be damned. Unless the caster doesn't have a shadow.

They do a lot better than Fighters, that's for sure. And I've already posted a bunch of times about how Concentration simply doesn't break to damage once you're past level 6 or 8.


The issue isn't that concentration breaks. (there are higher level monsters that will make concentration rough, but different story for a different time) The issue is the limit of spells that can be used at a single time. (Also, no readying a spell is mean)

I went with no feats or magic items because that was the scenario Andor presented.

Understood, just understand my reasoning that no feats & no magic items disproportionately hurts the fighter, especially considering fighters get 3 or so more feats by the time higher levels roll around

I mean no offence when I ask this, but have you played 5e very much? A level 15 Wizard (to match the level 15 Fighter in our example) has 18 spell slots, can regain up to 7 (though more likely 2 higher level ones) with Arcane Recovery and is very likely to be able to cast some of his utility spells as rituals. If we assume 6 utility spells per day, even 2 of which are cast as rituals, that leaves 16 for combat; 2 per encounter at the top end of the '6-8 per day' guidelines.

I'm at about 550 hours played, about 450 low level (1-8), 100 high level (9-18). So my experiences are primarily in the "gameplay" realm as opposed to the more theorycraft realm. Both are valid, don't get me wrong, but based on that; the theory of casters is far more alluring than the reality we've seen while playing. I think I probably have a different high level perspective than most folks who have started with Basic though, but I think my perspective will make more sense as we get closer to the end of the year.
 

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Cybit

First Post
Your PvP tests must be flawed. Reverse Gravity, Forcecage, and many other spells can completely destroy the fighter with no saving throw allowed. There is no way a level 13+ spellcaster could ever lose to a fighter. Even a DC 17 hold person can cause the fighter some serious trouble.

Alas the indomitable nerf makes me a sad panda, so fighters generally have a rough time versus wizards post PHB. Monks and Barbarians tend to turn wizards into piles of goo, though. Shadow Step + proficiency in all saves = dead wizard, or taking 1/2 damage from everything and/or winning initiative and just running up and wrecking the caster off the bat.

EDIT: Note 1v1 tends to turn into a rock/paper/scissors scenario regardless, as some classes can just maul others.
 

Ashkelon

First Post
Alas the indomitable nerf makes me a sad panda, so fighters generally have a rough time versus wizards post PHB. Monks and Barbarians tend to turn wizards into piles of goo, though. Shadow Step + proficiency in all saves = dead wizard, or taking 1/2 damage from everything and/or winning initiative and just running up and wrecking the caster off the bat.

EDIT: Note 1v1 tends to turn into a rock/paper/scissors scenario regardless, as some classes can just maul others.

Wall of force, forcecage, reverse gravity, etc all don't allow for a saving throw. The spellcasters opponent could have +1000 to saving throws and would still lose with no chance of winning.

Even with proficiency in all saves, the monk only has ~50% chance to succeed at a saving throw vs a spellcasters attacks. I would hardly call that being able to wreck the caster right off the bat.
 

Jack the Lad

Explorer
Actually, a monk will destroy a caster, wall of force be damned. Unless the caster doesn't have a shadow.
Shadow Step + proficiency in all saves = dead wizard
Shadow Step only works in Dim Light or Darkness, the rules for which are on page 183. A creature's shadow is not sufficient to create an area of Dim Light, or everything would be Lightly Obscured all the time. Even if it was, you can only Shadow Step from one area of Dim Light or Darkness to another, and you cannot be inside your own shadow.

So yes, the Monk instantly loses to Wall of Force. He does have a chance if he can win initiative and try for a stunlock, though, and a Four Elements monk can cast through the Wall of Force (though their spells aren't very good). Overall, he has a much better chance than a Fighter.

The issue isn't that concentration breaks. (there are higher level monsters that will make concentration rough, but different story for a different time) The issue is the limit of spells that can be used at a single time. (Also, no readying a spell is mean)
Right, dragon breath weapons and similar will break concentration, but you have all kinds of other tricks by the time you're facing those - including turning into a dragon yourself. You really don't need to be able to have two concentration spells running.

Understood, just understand my reasoning that no feats & no magic items disproportionately hurts the fighter, especially considering fighters get 3 or so more feats by the time higher levels roll around
I agree.

I'm at about 550 hours played, about 450 low level (1-8), 100 high level (9-18). So my experiences are primarily in the "gameplay" realm as opposed to the more theorycraft realm. Both are valid, don't get me wrong, but based on that; the theory of casters is far more alluring than the reality we've seen while playing. I think I probably have a different high level perspective than most folks who have started with Basic though, but I think my perspective will make more sense as we get closer to the end of the year.

Have casters in your party used Trap the Soul, Sequester, Animate Dead, Reverse Gravity, Contagion, Magic Jar, Wall of Force, True Polymorph or Shapechange much/at all?
 
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GrumpyGamer

First Post
Shadow Step only works in Dim Light or Darkness, the rules for which are on page 183. A creature's shadow is not sufficient to create an area of Dim Light, or everything would be Lightly Obscured all the time. Even if it was, you only Shadow Step from one area of Dim Light or Darkness to another, and you cannot be inside your own shadow.

So yes, the Monk instantly loses to Wall of Force. He does have a chance if he can win initiative and try for a stunlock, though, and a Four Elements monk can cast through the Wall of Force (though their spells aren't very good). Overall, he has a much better chance than a Fighter.


Right, dragon breath weapons and similar will break concentration, but you have all kinds of other tricks by the time you're facing those - including turning into a dragon yourself. You really don't need to be able to have two concentration spells running.


I agree.



Have casters in your party used Trap the Soul, Sequester, Animate Dead, Reverse Gravity, Contagion, Magic Jar, Wall of Force, True Polymorph or Shapechange much/at all?

I don't find your shadow argument to be convincing. What stops a monk from jumping from a shadow from a wall to say a shadow from a tree.

Also wall spells are concentration spells which pretty much means you're not stacking them with other control spells.
 

Jack the Lad

Explorer
I don't find your shadow argument to be convincing. What stops a monk from jumping from a shadow from a wall to say a shadow from a tree.

Again, page 183. It only works from a space in Dim Light/Darkness to a space in Dim Light/Darkness, and even gloomy days provide Bright Light. Even if we were going to be really generous and allow it, you still can't use your own shadow and there's not going to be a wall or tree inside the Wall of Force with the Monk.

Also wall spells are concentration spells which pretty much means you're not stacking them with other control spells.

Scenario: You're a Wizard. You have a Monk trapped in a Wall of Force. What other control spell do you want to cast? You don't need one. You just ping them down.
 
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Andor

First Post
Going to chime in here: 24 orcs absolutely does = 24 melee attacks per round, because opportunity attacks are Reactions, and you only get 1 per round. Capricia has already mentioned this, but it honestly can't be emphasised enough.

It makes putting your back up against a tree exactly the same as standing in an open field and thereby reduces the exercise to a pure numbers game. Once the Fighter has made his single swipe at a passing creature, any number of them can do a conga right line past him in complete safety. I hate it.

You're correct that I forgot that everyoe and his one-legged puppy has spring attack in 5e, but it's still not as dire as you think.

Anyway, let's do this. With 6 Ability Score Increases under his belt our Fighter can have stats of 20/20/18/13/11/9, so +6 Initiative (4 Dex/2 Remarkable Athlete) with 20 Str and 20 Con, making him statistically likely to win initiative against 18 of the Orcs. We'll have them start in move + attack range of each other, because if you game out a scenario where the two sides begin out of range it becomes a weird cold war of shufflestep spacing and readied actions. If there's a simple way I'm missing for the Fighter to gain advantage with a spaced start, though, I'm happy to look at this again in light of it.

Ok. So we're running with the worst case scenario of a baseline Champion, no feats, no multiclassing, and for some reason no magic weapons.

And we leave the static vacume of the white room and place this fight in the woods above the Rauros falls where Boromir fell.

And since everything else is going wrong we cut the poor guy some slack and start the fight at the optimal distance of 90', with no surprise. The warband of Orcs are marching in a column 4 abreast and 6 deep.

When they see Boromir they double move and use the Orc ability "Aggressive" to close the distance. The head head of the column is in contact with Boromir, the tail is still 30' away. Having triple moved they can't attack. Boromir Chops down the three within reach using his action surge and uses his move to retreat to the best cover he can find, a tree flanked by some shrubs. He is now 30' away from the remaining orc at the head of the column. The tail is 65' away. 21 Orcs, Boromir is at 169 hp.

The orcs use aggressive to move 30 feet closer. The lead orc attacks for 3.45 damage (I'm giving Boromir back his +1 AC Defense Style, we're screwing the guy hard enough without striping away class features.) He tries to move past to clear space for his White Hand buddies and Boromir cuts him down. The remaining 20 Orcs are now in a column 20' wide and 25' long, 10' away from Boromir. The center 2 use 5' of movement to step up and attack then move 25' to the side, avoiding the underbrush. The next two do the same thing, but can only move 20' to the side. The next column attacks and move aside. 9 Orcs have attacked and Boromir is now ringed in by Orcs 10' to 15' away. The remaining 12 Orcs now have to either end their turns next to Boromir or burn movement in difficult terrain, either the underbrush or their fellow orcs. The back rank of 4 can't get an attack in, as they have to burn 65' of movement as some of their buddies will be in the way. Probably we end up with an orc on either side of Boromir and a stack two deep and 3 wide facing him with an odd orc out.
So the Orcs pack 5 deep out to the sides and 3 deep in front.


(As an aside I would never run an encounter with Orcs this way. It's incredibly gamist. Kobolds, or Goblins maybe but Orcs are just too aggressive to use this sort of melee caracole.)

At any rate at the end of the second round 17 Orcs have attacked Boromir for about 58 damage. There are 20 Orcs left and Boromir has about 111 hp left.

During Round 3 the Orcs now have a problem. They need to operate in reverse order with the inside attacking and then moving out through the massed ranks. If you're using individual initiative it can't be done as 5e has no delay action and Readying an action doesn't cover it. By default however you don't use individual initiative for groups of similar creatures and the GM controls flow of action within groups. So the inside 7 orcs attack and move out. I'm not actually going to map it all out, with the aid of agressive, the Orcs can probably bring all of their numbers into one of the 7 spots surrounding Boromir during this rotating scrum. The attacks made from the sides however deal with partial cover. bringing his ac up to 21. So those attacks mean out to 2.25 damage. That's 6 of them, so total damage is 61.8 damage. Boromir uses his second wind and winds up with 64 hp. He also drops two Orcs with his 3 attacks and AoO.

Round 4 the Orcs will probably not drop Boromir. Slightly iffy, he certainly won't last past round 5. He kills another 4 orcs, about. Final tally 1 dead hero, 10 dead orcs.

Ok, it is pretty dire.

Hmm. Yep, that looks about right. Although the only reason the Orcs were so effective was a combination of a gamist combat style and more importantly an ability that allowed them to gain bonus movement. Without that, Boromir could have held them to a running battle where only the front ranks could actually get an attack in each round. Otherwise without the ability to charge the orcs more than 30' away would only be able to close and not attack. Each round Bormoir could simply attack the front rank dropping an Orc or two and retreat 30 feat, taking the AoO with glee. From the description in LotR this is about what Boromir actually did, until he got ganked by archers. Against an equal number of Guards Boromr would have won easily.

In a standard dungeon corridor held to a column two wide the caracole breaks down further, no more than 12 could possibly attack in a round. Boromir probably still loses, but he'll take a lot more with him.

Now with feats? GWF and Heavy Armour mastery would help a lot. GWM would drop an orc with every hit and he still hits 3/4 of the time, it also give him a bonus attack, lifting him up to a possible 5 kills a round, not incuding action surge. If Boromir had a magic weapon he would almost certainly drop an orc with every swing even without GWM. I'm too tired to try to game it out. :)

From this I conclude that Champions are hamstrung without access to the feat system, and level appropriate gear helps. Also that Orc aggressive trait is really dangerous.:p
 

Jack the Lad

Explorer
From this I conclude that Champions are hamstrung without access to the feat system, and level appropriate gear helps. Also that Orc aggressive trait is really dangerous.:p

I'm glad that we at least agree on that! Though perhaps not on how much feats and gear improve the situation (I'll try to math it out tomorrow).

I'd like to draw your attention to the bit I included on what a Wizard of the same level does in the same situation, though (immediately killing all the orcs with one spell even if they make their saves).

I'd also be very interested to hear your thoughts on the Fighter Design Goals article I quoted, which I feel is extremely important and relevant to the conversation at hand and the Fighter's role in the game in general.

It completely contradicts your view that it's only right and proper for the Wizard to be significantly more powerful than the Fighter, and that Fighter should take levels of caster class if they want to compete:

A high level Fighter without any magic might have chosen to be that way because their player read the Fighter Design Goals article and thought it sounded awesome:

The Fighter Is the Best at . . . Fighting!
  • Other classes might have nifty tricks, powerful spells, and other abilities, but when it’s time to put down a monster without dying in the process, the fighter should be our best class.
The Fighter Draws on Training and Experience, not Magic
  • Fighters master mundane tactics and weapon skills. They don’t need spells or some sort of external source of magical power to succeed.
The Fighter Exists in a World of Myth, Fantasy, and Legend
  • [...] while the fighter draws on mundane talent, we’re talking about mundane within the context of a mythical, fantasy setting. Beowulf slew Grendel by tearing his arm off. He later killed a dragon almost singlehandedly. Roland slew or gravely injured four hundred Saracens in a single battle. In the world of D&D, a skilled fighter is a one-person army.
The Fighter Is the Toughest Character
  • The fighter’s many hit points and high AC renders many monsters’ attacks powerless.
And most importantly..

A High-Level Fighter and a High-Level Wizard Are Equal
  • Too often in D&D, the high-level fighter is the flunky to a high-level wizard. It’s all too easy for combinations of spells to make the wizard a far more potent enemy or character, especially if a wizard can unleash his or her spells in rapid succession. A wizard might annihilate a small army of orcs with a volley of fireballs and cones of cold. The fighter does the same sword blow by sword blow, taking down waves of orcs each round. Balancing the classes at high levels is perhaps the highest priority for the fighter, and attaining balance is something that we must do to make D&D fit in with fantasy, myth, and legend. Even if a wizard unleashes every spell at his or her disposal at a fighter, the fighter absorbs the punishment, throws off the effects, and keeps on fighting.
...that's the Fighter class I want to play.
 
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Cybit

First Post
Shadow Step only works in Dim Light or Darkness, the rules for which are on page 183. A creature's shadow is not sufficient to create an area of Dim Light, or everything would be Lightly Obscured all the time. Even if it was, you can only Shadow Step from one area of Dim Light or Darkness to another, and you cannot be inside your own shadow.

So yes, the Monk instantly loses to Wall of Force. He does have a chance if he can win initiative and try for a stunlock, though, and a Four Elements monk can cast through the Wall of Force (though their spells aren't very good). Overall, he has a much better chance than a Fighter.

They alas changed Way of Shadow somewhat; but should that fight occur during nightfall, it might quickly end poorly. Several of the fights took place in cavern systems & buildings, so they were able to teleport around until they could get in, or merely pop out of Line of Sight and wait it out. (In one hilarious case, the monk merely ran up the wall with a certain magic item).

Right, dragon breath weapons and similar will break concentration, but you have all kinds of other tricks by the time you're facing those - including turning into a dragon yourself. You really don't need to be able to have two concentration spells running.

Generally speaking, you will not have 9th level spells when you start running into super terrifying creatures. The turning into a dragon bit I'll get to in a second. The things you are expected to face at 17th level are a little...insane.


Have casters in your party used Trap the Soul, Sequester, Animate Dead, Reverse Gravity, Contagion, Magic Jar, Wall of Force, True Polymorph or Shapechange much/at all?

Yes (but I think this spell has been changed, and I can't find it in my PHB currently), Yes (was useless, they hid...and then got waited out), Yes (was useless but changed since we used it, now sort of terrifying, wouldn't have been as useful in the fight), Yes (not useful), etc etc. The one that has been sort of crazy is True Polymorph, because we didn't have CRs created for the monsters at the time. The CR thing I think is messed up; should be the same as wild shape IMO. Wall of Force is useful for a turn or two, but it is easy for monsters to get out of LOS and wait it out.

Stuff with saves got eaten with by Legendary Resistance, lot of the others can get dealt with by higher level monsters that we were going through in decent fashion. Not by the mooks / lieutenants, but the type of monsters casters generally save 9th level spells for aren't quite destroyed by them like they used to be.

The two spells I am worried about are Animate Dead and True Polymorph. I think True Polymorph will end up getting errata'd, because of the CR thing. That said, I am not sure you can transform yourself into a dragon, because players do not have a CR. Your level is NOT supposed to be equal to a monster's CR as best as I can tell. I wonder if it is poorly worded.
 

Jack the Lad

Explorer
They alas changed Way of Shadow somewhat; but should that fight occur during nightfall, it might quickly end poorly. Several of the fights took place in cavern systems & buildings, so they were able to teleport around until they could get in, or merely pop out of Line of Sight and wait it out. (In one hilarious case, the monk merely ran up the wall with a certain magic item).

You seem to be misunderstanding me; I'm talking about casting Wall of Force over and around the Monk, trapping them under the dome. Not casting it as a wall to keep one away. This has been possible at least since the February playtest packet..

Generally speaking, you will not have 9th level spells when you start running into super terrifying creatures. The turning into a dragon bit I'll get to in a second. The things you are expected to face at 17th level are a little...insane.

I've seen the CR16 Adult Blue Dragon, the CR17 Adult Red Dragon, the CR24 Ancient Red Dragon and the CR30 Tarrasque. I don't know why you wouldn't expect to be level 17+ when you're fighting those kinds of monsters..?

[Trap the Soul] Yes (but I think this spell has been changed, and I can't find it in my PHB currently)
  • It appears on the Wizard spell list in the PHB, but there's no description. How did you find it in play? It was a straight up save or lose at least since the February packet.
[Sequester] Yes (was useless, they hid...and then got waited out)
  • Who hid, and what did they wait out? I'm not sure whether you're confused on this one too, but as of the February packet Sequester was a save-or-lose that permanently put a character to sleep. How is that useless?
[Reverse Gravity] Yes (was useless but changed since we used it, now sort of terrifying, wouldn't have been as useful in the fight),
  • As of the February playtest packet it worked the same way it does in the PHB; everything in a 50 foot radius is 100 feet in the air with no save. If you don't see a use for that I'm not sure what to say.
[Contagion] Yes (not useful), etc etc.
  • Contagion allows you to stun any monster you can hit with a spell attack for 3 rounds, guaranteed. How is that not useful?
[True Polymorph] The one that has been sort of crazy is True Polymorph, because we didn't have CRs created for the monsters at the time. The CR thing I think is messed up; should be the same as wild shape IMO.
  • I agree. It also shouldn't be possible to make it permanent.
Wall of Force is useful for a turn or two, but it is easy for monsters to get out of LOS and wait it out.
  • Again, you're ignoring the dome option.

Stuff with saves got eaten with by Legendary Resistance, lot of the others can get dealt with by higher level monsters that we were going through in decent fashion. Not by the mooks / lieutenants, but the type of monsters casters generally save 9th level spells for aren't quite destroyed by them like they used to be.

Magic Jar allowed you to permanently possess a creature's body with an opposed casting stat vs Charisma check in the playtest, gaining all its abilities but keeping your class features and spellcasting. It gave you a 93% chance of success against the Tarrasque. This is something that was dealt with easily enough that you don't feel it's worth mentioning it specifically?

I think True Polymorph will end up getting errata'd, because of the CR thing. That said, I am not sure you can transform yourself into a dragon, because players do not have a CR. Your level is NOT supposed to be equal to a monster's CR as best as I can tell. I wonder if it is poorly worded.

It's not poorly worded, you just haven't read it:
If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating)

You're making an awful lot of mistakes in terms of rules, some of which are attributable to changes that have been made since the playtest and some that I know from playtest packets that I saw are not.

You're dismissing incredibly powerful save-or-lose spells like Sequester and Contagion as useless and you don't understand how spells like Wall of Force or True Polymorph work.

Based on your posts, I'm afraid I can't help thinking that your 'nearly 600 hours' of play experience isn't serving you well here.
 
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