Class Compendium: Heroes of Legend

[Scribble]

Who is angry? I don't think I've posted anything that should give you the impression that I am angry or mad about any of this. I am making observations, that's it...unless me choosing not to agree with your opinions and assertions = angry??

Nope. Word choice- like "justified" is what made me feel you were upset about it. If you're not- so be it, I misread your tone.

It just feels like these issues aren't really effecting anyone, and to find them someone has to be searching for something to be an issue.

I think you're trying to find a way to assert that WotC plannned all of this to happen the way it did...

I wouldn't say planned, nor am I "trying to find" anything.

All I'm doing is pointing out that there's always parts of the explanation people wouldn't know about unless they're part of the inside.

instead of going with the simplest explanation... which is WotC didn't prepare well enough for the roll out of essentials, especially in conjunction with their classic products and electronic tools.

Or that they didn't want any of this missed deadlines to happen, but didn't really have the budget/manpower to ensure that it didn't, so they figured doing their best to lessen the effects, and deal with whatever happens when it happens would be the better strategy.

Or something looked like it would be easier to do, but turned out to be much harder, or an unanticipated problem cropped up.

We don't really know what the circumstances were.


(And this part is not sparked by any specific comment you made, this is somewhat unrelated.)

Personally I think for some reason gamers tend to jump to the worst case scenario about anything game related... It's never "I would have preferred they went this route..." It's always "This is why this choice is going to destroy the game as we know it..."

 

[MrMyth]

I'd consider the change to Magic Missle to be significant. If I were more familair with Essentials, I could probably point out more dramatic changes.

I mean, it's a change, yes. But I don't see it as a significant one. The wizard now has an attack that hits automatically for about half the damage his previous attack did (which probably hit about half the time in the first place.) How huge a difference does this make to the game as a whole? Or, in fact, how big a difference does it even make to the wizard?

Previous spell changes that were significant were things like Bull's Strength - it was a buff with a duration that could be extended to last for hours, and had a variable amount that let it benefit from being Empowered, etc. So you had adventuring parties built around heavy use of it and similar spells, which would expect to have these huge stat buffs up all day long. Then it became a flat bonus with a shorter duration, and those parties had their entire adventuring dynamic change.

That's the big difference to me. We've had a number of fiddly little changes to specific mechanics, and Magic Missile is certainly one of those (and, honestly, a change I don't think was especially needed.) But the number of changes with far-reaching ramifications for the game as a whole? The number of changes that required characters to fundamentally rethink their approach to the game?

Those, overall, I really just haven't seen.

 

[TerraDave]

No, those books will not be reprinted. Maybe we will get a super deluxe PHB in the future that compiles stuff coming out now, but it will basically be a new book.

Yes, 4E may harken back to older editions by having a more modular design then 3E. And the 3E "tappestry" approach may have been a real issue. This is very interesting, and possibly deserves its own thread.

BUT, what gets my goat-headed demon god about all this is that not only is it a new edition, its a freaking new game of D&D. Its completely new D&D, with its own starter set, player and DM books, adventures...with a format that is new to the game. You don't need any of the hardbacks for it. Its all new.

Yes, they have taken a different, arguably better, aproach then 3.5. Yes some games may be impacted less then 3.5 (though I think this will really, really depend...my own game was never that affected by the particular 3.5 changes). Yes, we can have our own adaption strategies.

Buts its a new freaking game!

 

[Scribble]

Buts its a new freaking game!

I just don't see- at all (especially now that the books are actually out) how you can say this???

At most this reminds me of when 3.5 introduced Binders and Incarnum, and the Tomb of Battle stuff to the game...

Just new systems added to the current system- All fully compatible.

It's the same game with more options.

How are you saying this is a new game in any way shape or form?

Seriously- I don't get it!

 

[Imaro]

I just don't see- at all (especially now that the books are actually out) how you can say this???

At most this reminds me of when 3.5 introduced Binders and Incarnum, and the Tomb of Battle stuff to the game...

Just new systems added to the current system- All fully compatible.

It's the same game with more options.

How are you saying this is a new game in any way shape or form?

Seriously- I don't get it!

I don't remember the core books being retro-eratta'd so that Binders and Incarnum worked properly with it... I don't remember a book having to be published so that some subsystems (like multi-classing) would work between 3.5 Core characters and Incarnum character... I think there are definitely differences in the example you gave.

 

[Scribble]

I don't remember the core books being retro-eratta'd so that Binders and Incarnum worked properly with it... I don't remember a book having to be published so that some subsystems (like multi-classing) would work between 3.5 Core characters and Incarnum character... I think there are definitely differences in the example you gave.

Sure- but minor differences at best.

Multi-classing works differently in the game system then it did in 3.5 this is true pre-essentials as well.

Anytime they add a new class they add a new multi-class option. This is just the multi-class option for this batch of classes.

The more relevant point remains though- nothing about this creates a "new game" unless you consider added options a new game... In which case every splat book ever made has created a new game.


They're adding new options.

They're keeping already existing options.

 

[Almacov]

Pardon my ignorance, folks, but...
why does it matter whether it's a new game?

If the material is compatible with the current game and compelling enough to warrant purchase and use, then why not use it?

If too much of the material feels redundant, or isn't palatable to your gaming sensibilities, why would you feel compelled to pay it mind?

Some friends and I still play 3.5 occaisionally and enjoy it just as much as we used to.
When the Book of Nine Swords came out, we sampled a bit of it, decided it wasn't to our liking, and simply didn't use its material in our games.
By contrast, one of the 3.5 DMs had no qualms pilfering some of the 4e cosmology for his campaign.

There has never been and hopefully never will be an enforced, overarching, canonical way of playing D&D.
What is canon in any given game session is defined by a consensus between the participants, with the DM having the final word.

Nothing is going to change the game you love unless you wish it to.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Pardon my ignorance, folks, but...
why does it matter whether it's a new game?

I love you. Wanna be message-board married?

 

[Almacov]

I love you. Wanna be message-board married?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not ready for that kind of commitment.


As for the various potentials of class compendiums, I wonder if "grants non-D&D Essentials characters access to class features from Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms" means I could eventually build a druid with both Wildshape and an Animal Companion. =P
I like the idea of playing a whole pack of wolves as one character.
(Though there's already a way to get four wolves on the table at once with a Hybrid Druid/Beastmaster Ranger, with a summon wolf daily power and a multiclass feat to get a spirit companion. It's horribly suboptimal, of course, but fun.
Ideally though, I could get an Animal Companion in the mix too... )

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd consider the change to Magic Missle to be significant. If I were more familair with Essentials, I could probably point out more dramatic changes.

I might agree with you if it weren't for the fact that magic missile was almost only taken by niche builds which were abusing it to cause levels of damage that pretty much guaranteed their annihilation by errata.