Class Design: One Primary Attack Stat

[thecasualoblivion]

You can't make a character with 16,16,14,x,x,x with the 22 point buy. Two 16s cost 18pts, and a 14 costs 5. That adds up to 23. If you have a pair of 16s, you don't have a 14 in your tertiary stat.

That being said, there are some simple baseline issues for converting two stat characters into one stat characters:

Cleric and Paladin--These don't have build specific powers(such as how the Rogue has powers that get extra candy for Artful Dodger or Brutal scoundrel), and changing these to a one stat class kind of makes the build irrelevant. My solution would be to give Cleric and Paladin a minor class feature based on the choice of build. For example, for Paladins changed to use Cha with all attacks, Str secondary Paladins would get a +1 shield bonus to AC/Reflex when using 2hd weapons, while Wis secondary Paladins would grant +1 to the defenses of adjacent allies.

Ranger--This one is tough. I don't like making the class totally Dex based, as this doesn't make sense for Rangers who dual-wield hammers and axes. My solution would make the three Ranger builds self contained and able to use all Ranger powers:

TWF--Build would be Str/Dex, with the class ability to use Dex in place of Wis using melee and utility powers and attack with both stats.

Archer--Archer Rangers can replace Str with Dex when using melee powers wielding light blades.

Beast--I like the Str/Wis array for this, so they get chain armor proficiency and can use Str for ranged powers while using Heavy Thrown weapons.

Warlock--Do you pick Con or Cha as the stat? I prefer Cha, even though this means no class now attacks with Con. If all Warlocks attack with either of these, and the other becomes the other secondary stat, this puts Warlocks who don't use Int at a severe armor disadvantage. Personally, I'd make Cha primary, Con secondary for Infernal/Dark, Int secondary for Star/Fey, and give the Warlock class chain armor proficiency.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

You can't make a character with 16,16,14,x,x,x with the 22 point buy. Two 16s cost 18pts, and a 14 costs 5. That adds up to 23. If you have a pair of 16s, you don't have a 14 in your tertiary stat.

Whoops! My bad, you're right. You can only get two 18's and a 13, which is a minor difference. The point still stands though that no matter what your starting stats at least one will lag behind unless you're spreading your stats around pretty thing...which makes life difficult at higher levels.

That being said, there are some simple baseline issues for converting two stat characters into one stat characters:

Cleric and Paladin--These don't have build specific powers(such as how the Rogue has powers that get extra candy for Artful Dodger or Brutal scoundrel), and changing these to a one stat class kind of makes the build irrelevant. My solution would be to give Cleric and Paladin a minor class feature based on the choice of build. For example, for Paladins changed to use Cha with all attacks, Str secondary Paladins would get a +1 shield bonus to AC/Reflex when using 2hd weapons, while Wis secondary Paladins would grant +1 to the defenses of adjacent allies.

Ranger--This one is tough. I don't like making the class totally Dex based, as this doesn't make sense for Rangers who dual-wield hammers and axes. My solution would make the three Ranger builds self contained and able to use all Ranger powers:

TWF--Build would be Str/Dex, with the class ability to use Dex in place of Wis using melee and utility powers and attack with both stats.

Archer--Archer Rangers can replace Str with Dex when using melee powers wielding light blades.

Beast--I like the Str/Wis array for this, so they get chain armor proficiency and can use Str for ranged powers while using Heavy Thrown weapons.

Warlock--Do you pick Con or Cha as the stat? I prefer Cha, even though this means no class now attacks with Con. If all Warlocks attack with either of these, and the other becomes the other secondary stat, this puts Warlocks who don't use Int at a severe armor disadvantage. Personally, I'd make Cha primary, Con secondary for Infernal/Dark, Int secondary for Star/Fey, and give the Warlock class chain armor proficiency.

The problem I have with these solutions is what about the single stat classes? Say I want a Fighter with high CON but I want to use Heavy Blades to get that +3 proficiency bonus and get use out of the Swordmaster PP? Why can't I change everything that says "DEX mod" to "CON mod"? Heck, look at Rain of Blows. It's arguably one of the best Fighter encounter powers, but you only get the secondary attacks with a Light Blade, Spear or Flail...which are also some of the "weaker" weapon groups in terms of damage output. That power is just categorically weaker when it comes to a STR/CON Fighter selecting it.

The problem of certain powers being poor selections depending on stat allocation is a univeral one, but you're only proposing a fix for a subset of classes. The thing is, rather than having a different "build" dependant on weapon choice or feature choice, the dual stat classes have different "builds" based on their primary stat choice. How are the two any different? You still can't play a Fighter or a Rogue and get equal benefit out of every power regardless of stat distribution or weapon choice. About the only class that has that sort of flexibility is the Wizard currently, but only because impliment choice comes into play once per encounter (they still get limited when taking certain routes, just not to the same extent).

I mean, show the build that's entirely gimped and limited in choice because it's dual stat, and then show me how it's different than a single stat class that's gimped and limited because they're using the wrong weapon type or not getting stat bonuses because of power selection.

I am, however, aware that the Paladin does have an issue with some levels not having a Strength-based power in them.
1) When Divine Power comes out this should be fixed due to a larger number of choices.
2) You can pick powers of a lower level at those level...while it's not ideal, it does mean you're not forced to take a power that's not for your primary stat.
3) A Paladin can still go STR/CHA and be able to use those CHA powers when they come up. He may have a CHA that's a point behind STR, but a single point shouldn't be something that's completely impossible to deal with.
4) This is more of a Paladin specific issue, not one with dual stat classes. It could be fixed with a minor houserule that converts one power at each of those levels to STR, and then allowing the Pally to take that. Additionally, the Paladin could multiclass into Fighter or something and take a Fighter power at those levels. More feat intensive, but it would give him some new options.

 

[nittanytbone]

The biggest problem with dual-attack stat classes is when class features key off of one but not the other.

For example, a paladin's mark keys off of CHA. So even STR-adins have some need for CHA. A CHA cleric can dump STR to some degree (I guess they will want 14 STR for Hvy Blade Opportunity).

A cleric's Turn Undead and Healing powers key off of WIS. So even a STR cleric can't dump WIS. However, a CHA cleric can dump STR.

 

[evilbob]

The thing is, rather than having a different "build" dependant on weapon choice or feature choice, the dual stat classes have different "builds" based on their primary stat choice. How are the two any different? You still can't play a Fighter or a Rogue and get equal benefit out of every power regardless of stat distribution or weapon choice.

I just don't think we're discussing the same point. In my opinion, there is a huge difference between a secondary or tertiary stat that boosts some power a small amount - say, how Str or Cha can boost some rogue powers by adding a little damage here or an extra square of movement there - and a primary attack stat. Primary attack stats are the most important stats you have. If you can't hit something (and nearly every power is based off of HITTING something), who cares how much extra X you do?

Classes that have two primary attack stats are always at a disadvantage for this reason, especially if they choose to pursue a dual-primary build. There is no comparison for a rogue trying to keep both Str and Cha up along with Dex, vs. a cleric trying to keep Str and Wis both maxed while also fiddling with Cha. It is really irrelevant what level you are: this will always be harder for a dual-stat class.


thecasualoblivion: That's a good point about clerics and palys not having a major secondary stat bonus like rogues and others do. It leads me to believe that simply changing dual-stat classes like I've proposed above (just allow either stat) might be too much of a boost for those classes, because it effectively reverses their problem: suddenly, they have no major secondary stat (just a "tertiary" one) to worry about while still being able to access all of their potential powers. This is generalizing of course, but it does free them up considerably.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

thecasualoblivion: That's a good point about clerics and palys not having a major secondary stat bonus like rogues and others do. It leads me to believe that simply changing dual-stat classes like I've proposed above (just allow either stat) might be too much of a boost for those classes, because it effectively reverses their problem: suddenly, they have no major secondary stat (just a "tertiary" one) to worry about while still being able to access all of their potential powers. This is generalizing of course, but it does free them up considerably.

Its actually the biggest problem for Clerics. I'd say less than half of their powers get boosted by Charisma(their secondary stat). Paladins have powers that are improved by Wisdom much more often. I also don't think its a big power issue. Combining the two attack stats is a boost to Clerics and Paladins, but not as big as you'd think. The main problem is that when you do so, the two "builds" stop being significant, especially for Clerics who have few powers influenced by their second stat. There is a significant difference between Brutal Scoundrels and Artful Dogers when it comes to the Rogue class. There isn't that sort of difference with Paladins and Clerics if you combine their two stats into one.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Cleric and Paladin--These don't have build specific powers(such as how the Rogue has powers that get extra candy for Artful Dodger or Brutal scoundrel), and changing these to a one stat class kind of makes the build irrelevant. My solution would be to give Cleric and Paladin a minor class feature based on the choice of build. For example, for Paladins changed to use Cha with all attacks, Str secondary Paladins would get a +1 shield bonus to AC/Reflex when using 2hd weapons, while Wis secondary Paladins would grant +1 to the defenses of adjacent allies.

For paladins, I was thinking about adding "oaths" as builds. "Oath of the Crusader" is the Str-second build, "Oath of the Protector" as the Wis-second build. It basically augment a few powers. But I'm not sure if I'm going to do it.

Ranger--This one is tough. I don't like making the class totally Dex based, as this doesn't make sense for Rangers who dual-wield hammers and axes. My solution would make the three Ranger builds self contained and able to use all Ranger powers:

Well, IMO, that kinda defeats the purpose of one primary attack stack. But I understand that you gotta do what you gotta do (that's why I'm doing it, myself ). It's no weirder IMO than, say, a swordmage who attacks with a greatsword using Int. Fighters need grace and quick reaction time to make their attacks, but they rely primarily on Str to actually do the job. Similarly, rangers rely on power and muscle now and then, but their fighting style relies more on Dex. And in order to make basic melee attacks, the ranger still needs to use his Str. It's just the super cool ranger attacks, the ones he has specially trained for, that require Dex.

I'm getting around to my ranger rewrite, and I'm sticking with it being Dex based for all builds and all weapons. Str-second for meleeist rangers, Wis-second for archer rangers. I want to have two-weapon, archer, and beastmaster builds, but I also want to have a "tough," "survivor," "grizzled," or "veteran" ranger build (still trying to think of the name), one that uses one weapon and a shield. It would have some defender/leader leanings, using experience and guile to make attacks. I want Str and Wis to be used roughly equally (as Int and Cha are used by resourceful warlords).

Warlock--Do you pick Con or Cha as the stat? I prefer Cha, even though this means no class now attacks with Con. If all Warlocks attack with either of these, and the other becomes the other secondary stat, this puts Warlocks who don't use Int at a severe armor disadvantage. Personally, I'd make Cha primary, Con secondary for Infernal/Dark, Int secondary for Star/Fey, and give the Warlock class chain armor proficiency.

I'm going to go with warlocks being Con primary. They get their power by siphoning off a bit of their lifeforce (some might say soul...) to the entities they deal with. In any case, wielding this magic is physically demanding and requires great endurance to channel and shape, which is why Con is important. More damaging powers use Int secondary, while more controllerish powers use Cha secondary.

 

[firesnakearies]

I think I'd like to rework it so that every class has ONE primary stat which governs all of their attacks, and TWO secondary stats which affect their powers and class features (and feat eligibility) in a more or less even division.

I think I like this distribution the most:


Fighter: Strength primary, Constitution and Dexterity secondary
Cleric: Wisdom primary, Constitution and Charisma secondary
Paladin: Charisma primary, Strength and Wisdom secondary
Ranger: Dexterity primary, Constitution and Wisdom secondary
Rogue: Dexterity primary, Charisma and Wisdom secondary
Swordmage: Intelligence primary, Dexterity and Constitution secondary
Wizard: Intelligence primary, Wisdom and Constitution secondary
Warlord: Strength primary, Intelligence and Charisma secondary
Warlock: Charisma primary, Constitution and Wisdom secondary


These stat associations just make more sense to me, and seem more fair.

I completely took certain stats away from some classes. Fighters no longer use Wisdom. Clerics, Rangers, Rogues, and Swordmages no longer use Strength. Wizards no longer use Dexterity. Warlocks no longer use Intelligence.

More classes use Constitution now as a secondary stat, but I don't want any class to use it as a primary. Wisdom is more used as a secondary now, too.

Feat requirements would also be adjusted to fit the expectations of this new character paradigm.

I'd also give every character, as a standard rule, the ability to make basic attacks, with any weapon that they are proficient with, using their class' primary attack stat -- no special feat needed.



$

 

[thecasualoblivion]

My goal when changing things in theory is to have the lightest touch possible, and to change things while changing how powers work as little as possible.

Well, IMO, that kinda defeats the purpose of one primary attack stack. But I understand that you gotta do what you gotta do (that's why I'm doing it, myself ). It's no weirder IMO than, say, a swordmage who attacks with a greatsword using Int. Fighters need grace and quick reaction time to make their attacks, but they rely primarily on Str to actually do the job. Similarly, rangers rely on power and muscle now and then, but their fighting style relies more on Dex. And in order to make basic melee attacks, the ranger still needs to use his Str. It's just the super cool ranger attacks, the ones he has specially trained for, that require Dex.

I'm getting around to my ranger rewrite, and I'm sticking with it being Dex based for all builds and all weapons. Str-second for meleeist rangers, Wis-second for archer rangers. I want to have two-weapon, archer, and beastmaster builds, but I also want to have a "tough," "survivor," "grizzled," or "veteran" ranger build (still trying to think of the name), one that uses one weapon and a shield. It would have some defender/leader leanings, using experience and guile to make attacks. I want Str and Wis to be used roughly equally (as Int and Cha are used by resourceful warlords).

I don't think its that big of an issue. While the Ranger class still uses both stats under my houserules, the three builds are all self-contained and can support using all Ranger powers(aside from Beast powers being specific to Beastmasters). My Rangers again:

1. TWF Ranger--As a class feature, may substitute Dexterity as the secondary modifier of any melee or utility power. This makes the TWF Ranger Str primary and Dex secondary by replacing Wisdom with Dexterity. You can still use all of the Ranged powers since Dexterity is a stat you are pumping at every opportunity, but you'll be less effective since your Wisdom isn't going to be that high and you'll get less out of the secondary effects. This change also keeps the TWF wearing Hide armor. You're using two stats to attack, but they are two stats you WILL have, so all powers remain equally useable.

2. Archer Ranger--As a class feature, you may use Dexterity for attack rolls and damage when using melee Ranger powers while wielding Light Blades. Being limited to Light Blades makes you a much better Archer than melee but you still have all Ranger powers available, and you use Dexterity for all attacks.

3. Beastmaster Ranger--Bonus Feat: Chain armor proficiency. As a class feature, you may use Strength for attack rolls and damage when using ranged Ranger powers while wielding Heavy Thrown weapons. This lets you use all Ranger powers using Strength, while keeping you primarily melee. Chain proficiency covers the fact that Dexterity won't be a primary stat for you.

Working Rangers this way requires no rewriting of powers(since its the features themselves that change things), and makes every build self-contained and able to use the entire Ranger power list(with the exception of Beast powers). All three of these Rangers end up quite different.

I'm going to go with warlocks being Con primary. They get their power by siphoning off a bit of their lifeforce (some might say soul...) to the entities they deal with. In any case, wielding this magic is physically demanding and requires great endurance to channel and shape, which is why Con is important. More damaging powers use Int secondary, while more controllerish powers use Cha secondary.

The way I see it, a Warlock's power comes from the deals they've made and their force of personality. That is Charisma. While the core of what they do comes from their force of will, some Warlocks would channel their power through their minds(Fey and Star), and some would channel it through their flesh(Dark and Infernal), which is how the secondary stats work.