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Class list for PHB

I think the major question anybody needs to ask about the Assassin is why would they go adventuring in a group? Unless the target of the assassination is one of the player characters...in which case why would anybody want them as part of the group?

I can think of several potential reasons for an Assassin to travel with a group of adventurers.

  • Renegade on the run from his guild/order joining up with an adventuring party in order to escape and survive.
  • The Assassin has gotten tired of killing normal human(oid) targets and wants to kill something different like a dragon
  • The Assassin needs the skills of the other members of an adventuring party in order reach and kill his target
  • The Assassin is protecting a target from other Assassins and the target is one of the other party members.
That is 4 different reasons for an Assassin to be part of an adventuring party, and I think I can give you a few more if you want them.
 

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gyor

Legend
Here is my problem.

D&D has roughly (if you ignore similar concepts and redundancies) 50 some classes in it. Some are obscure as all Baator (hello factotum) and others feel like natural additions (I'm honestly shocked we made it through 1e without some demon-powered magic caster, because warlock seems right at home).

The question this always boils down to is what should make a class worth being a full-bodied class, and what better fits a supplementary role (either as a later addition in a supplement, a background, a specialty, or whatever prestige idea they add later).

Since there is no objective way of measuring such things, we all default to our "gut" and make value judgments based on our experiences and beliefs. The problem with that is that we bring our own prejudices into the mix. For example, I think the Spellthief from 3.5 is hella-weak in both concept and execution. I could really care less if it was ever made a class again. Others will disagree with me. That's fine. Here's where it gets rough.

I'm of the opinion that the PHB 1 classes (Assassin through Warlord) get a free pass. Why? Because they are iconic to at least one edition of D&D, and if this is the edition of healing, unity, and kumbaya, it needs all the parts from all the editions there. It doesn't matter if your PC is a half-orc assassin or a dragonborn warlord, those options should be out the gate for you in Next. (If you picked a more obscure race/class from a supplement, that might be another story).

Further, I think most people refuse to believe that themes/specialties are fairly lackluster. They're a tree of linked feats, which could be taken separately or ignored completely if so chosen. You can't say X is a specialty without inherently saying "X is nothing but a few feats and should be ignorable". I'd hate to see my 1e inspired DM have to choose between having an OS no feats/specialties in his game and having an "assassin" character available.

Specialties might work for a class that is decisively one-trick (the aforementioned spell-thief might work as an add-on for Sneak Attack) but iconic classes have no business as specialties.

Third, there is a nasty habit to refight the class-wars of the past yet again. Barbarian isn't a class, its a culture. Assassin is a job anyone can do. Monks are too asian, paladins should serve gods, etc etc etc. I think it does us no good to refight these wars. Barbarian has been a class for Four editions now. There has never been a generic, non-asian flavored martial artist in any edition now. We need to get over the fact that these classes have been classes now for a while, some of them multiple editions. They have fluff and crunch differences from other classes. Trying to cram barbarian back into Fighter or Druid back into Cleric is like trying to put the smoke back in the bottle. They've won the right to be classes again.

Now, what does that mean for the rest of them? Well, some of them I think will make it back to classdom but not out the gate (Psionics is [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 [/URL] example; its too hard to fit spells and powers in one PHB). Others were grid-fillers that no longer have a niche (an invoker didn't have much beyond "divine controller" to set it apart from cleric, I see no need to keep it around. While I can see a place for shaman as different than a druid). We can debate if we need a dedicated gish class, or if avenger is strong enough to stand alone in some supplement. But I think it really is counterproductive to argue about the PHB. It needs those classes to be successful and they have earned their place.

So lets quit over arguing the validity of an assassin class and start discussing how it should be done, because screaming that it doesn't belong is counterproductive at this point.

Best post ever on the subject period. This says it all for me and I just don't see how anyone can't sensably rebutt it.
 

tuxgeo

Adventurer
< ge-schnippitude, y'all!>
. . . Some towed the 3e line, and even others jumped ship
< Once again: ge-schnippitude, y'all!>

[explicitly snarky comment of mine redacted -- I'm sure it said something about illiterate 'Cheese,' but I have edited this comment so many times this evening that I forget its contents now]

I'll give you this one explanation, but don't expect second helpings:

<Begin Spelling-Nazi>"They didn't 'tow' the line -- instead, they put their 'toes' on the line, which is to say, they 'toed' the line. {([There is NO W in that kind of 'toe!' Rather, it's a matter of all lining up in exact uniformity, not a hair out of place, in a precisely perfect, linear formation. And, as I'm sure you already know, 'towing' with a W usually amounts to pulling (something) with a rope or a chain.])}."</End Spelling-Nazi>
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Best post ever on the subject period. This says it all for me and I just don't see how anyone can't sensably rebutt it.

I do agree, it is a good post. And it is a futility to argue against this or that class when it seems fairly clear that this or that is already going to be in the PHB.

However, by Remathilis' own criteria, two things jump to mind:
Barbarian = 1 trick pony. Rage mechanic.
Warlord = Grid filler. Martial Leader.

Just sayin'.

But I heartily agree with the comments about discussing how to make the classes WORK as opposed to our individual preferences on what should/shouldn't be included...when its clear for most classes what already will be.
 

However, by Remathilis' own criteria, two things jump to mind:
Barbarian = 1 trick pony. Rage mechanic.
Warlord = Grid filler. Martial Leader.

For Barbarian, take the 4e Barbarian. Barbarian = Spirit/Totem Warrior with vanilla rage as just the most mundane expression of those spirits.

Warlord most assuredly is not a grid filler. An inspirational non-magical leader is iconic in so many places.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
One thing that influenced what classes would make it as classes is those topics where the posters try to find out what class the characters from a book, TV show, movie, or comic is.

Every angry non-magical person is a barbarian.
And since 2008, every smart or charismatic warrior is a warlord. Not angry fighters or smart combat rogues. Its "Gregor Clegane: Barbarian"

Once in a while you'll see artificer for gadgeteers and power armor guys.

Now if you can tap into what what make people associate this character with this class, then we can create a great class list and justifications for each character.
 

Remathilis

Legend
I do agree, it is a good post. And it is a futility to argue against this or that class when it seems fairly clear that this or that is already going to be in the PHB.

However, by Remathilis' own criteria, two things jump to mind:
Barbarian = 1 trick pony. Rage mechanic.
Warlord = Grid filler. Martial Leader.

Just sayin'.

But I heartily agree with the comments about discussing how to make the classes WORK as opposed to our individual preferences on what should/shouldn't be included...when its clear for most classes what already will be.

You can boil ANY class down to those two criteria if you try hard enough. I mean a wizard with one spell per day is a the ultimate one-trick pony.

That said, if we need additional criteria, here are two more:

Popularity: Is the class popular among players? Did it see a lot of play and transition from edition to edition? Classes like artificer or swordmage might fall into this area.
Archetype: Does it fill some traditional element of fantasy archetype, or is it a mechanical idea in search for a rationale? Ninja's or shamans might fit here.

If a class can survive most, if not all, of these gauntlets, it has a good chance of being a class.
 


For Barbarian, take the 4e Barbarian. Barbarian = Spirit/Totem Warrior with vanilla rage as just the most mundane expression of those spirits.

Warlord most assuredly is not a grid filler. An inspirational non-magical leader is iconic in so many places.

Y'know, I could actually see an argument for the Warlord and Barbarian Classes to be combined - which would deal with the weak narrative issues that both have.

That is, keep with the 'inspirational' warrior schtick, but incorporate 'rage' as a possible (optional) expression of that aspect, alongside other choices (like miltary-trained tactics, or inspirational speech-making instead, etc). I say also with respect to earlier edition versions of the Barbarian which did actually have leadership aspects - attracting followers, etc. As such, the differentiation between the Warlord and Fighter would be emphisised by the psychological and external impact of the class, rather than in terms of pure combatant expertise.

I still think that 'Barbarian' could be an effective Background (because that is what it actually is!), while there could still also be a 'Beserker' speciality too (which would effectively boost damage and HP), as well as 'Survivalist' feats. This way you could have a Barbarian Warlord Beserker....

With respects to the Assassin, I just think that there needs to be less association with the Rogue stats and theme - make it a trained warrior that relies upon stealth, deceit and misdirection, rather than open conflict.

If this was the case, we could have the following base list of Classes:

Fighter - Pure combatant, soldier or mercenary.
Cleric - Priest-Warror, Cult follower or general moral-meter.
Rogue - Skill based treasure-seeker, everyman and/or n'er-do-well.
Wizard - Scholarly, academic based magic-users.

Ranger - Wilderness-based warrior.
Paladin - Chosen Paragons and Champions of a variety of ideologies.
Warlord - Leaders and inspirational warriors from a variety of cultures (including Barbarian), but not necessarily tied to any ideology.
Assassin - Stealth-based killers.
Monk - Exotic martial artists and mystics.
Druid - Nature-based priests and shapeshifters.
Sorcerer - Primordial magic-users.
Warlock (or Witch) - Pact-based magic users.
Bard - Inspirational chroniclers and performers.

...and I'd be pretty content with that. 13 Classes is a good number for me....
 
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Not much discussion here about another class unique (in PHB1 form, anyway) to AD&D: The Illusionist.

If the Assassin makes it in for kumbaya purposes, why not the Illusionist? It's a flavorful, fun class that IMO never worked right as a wizard specialization.

Yet it seems very likely that the Illusionist will be done as a wizard tradition - and (big if) assuming they do it right, I'm okay with that. If instead it's just another watered-down specialist, I will sigh deeply and roll my eyes.

Why can't the Assassin equally well be done as a rogue scheme? What is unique to the (PHB1) class that couldn't fit there? Assuming that, as above, they do it right.

What's the rationale for kumbaya applying to one class and not to another?
 

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