Classes and Roles: supply and demand

[Leatherhead]

I wonder if this problem isn't "chicken and egg." There are more strikers, people who play are more likely to find a character concept they like that also happens to be a striker, and thus more strikers are released because people use strikers.

Or maybe it is just easier to make a striker than any other role.

And what's with all this "sexy?" Half the strikers in existence are the opposite of sexy, what with their low CHA scores.

 

[Herschel]

Isn't that one of the problems for a "pure" controller?...

Not at all. Controller abilities are really good to have. When you don't have a "pure" controller, you really need to make up for it somehow. Controllers and Defenders are really useful and, dare I say, necessary for party survival. Minions LOVE undefended, uncontrolled Striker groups. Cheap, low-XP puds rip them to shreds.

There's enough flexibility in builds you can work them one way or another. I have an Avenger I'm waiting to play that's very defender-esque. One of my Swordmages has been very controller-esque with his bursts, blasts, imobilize, etc. All the roles should be covered, even if it's tertiary instead of primary.

 

[Sadrik]

Minions LOVE undefended, uncontrolled Striker groups. Cheap, low-XP puds rip them to shreds.

I think it is really neato how you assume the mechanics work on this. However in actual play, strikers do have AoE powers (not many) and in the case of the ranger they can pop two per round. Despite funky 1 HP guys, strikers can carve through them just as easily as a group of defenders or leaders.

 

[RefinedBean]

I think it is really neato how you assume the mechanics work on this. However in actual play, strikers do have AoE powers (not many) and in the case of the ranger they can pop two per round. Despite funky 1 HP guys, strikers can carve through them just as easily as a group of defenders or leaders.

So every group without a controller should have a ranger or a sorcerer?

His point is valid; minions do VERY well increasing the threat against parties with little to no controller focus (including not having a controller itself).

You're right in pointing out that it's too easy to simply claim "Controllers = Minion Killers" and call it a day, though.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You're right in pointing out that it's too easy to simply claim "Controllers = Minion Killers" and call it a day, though.

Especially because that means controllers are fun or not based on what kinds of encounters the DM chucks at the party. That's not cool.

 

[Leatherhead]

So every group without a controller should have a ranger or a sorcerer?

His point is valid; minions do VERY well increasing the threat against parties with little to no controller focus (including not having a controller itself).

You're right in pointing out that it's too easy to simply claim "Controllers = Minion Killers" and call it a day, though.

Minions aren't a much more of a threat than they are normally.

However, Lurkers and Skirmishers will be the real pain for such a group.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I've updated the original post with new data. I moved Swordmage (Smg) from Other into their own listing as a few have popped up.

It's been my experience that players who start with a leader or controller get frustrated and eventually switch to a striker, and that the defenders tend to build their defenders as striker like as possible.

That's been my experience as well: I've seen two players start with wizards and swap to sorcerers. What got me thinking about this topic to begin with was the lack of options when creating a defender; the group in question has two leaders so I'm considering building a defender to be striker-like - possibly a paladin, thanks to Particle Man for suggesting I take another look at the class without the old school goggles on - and relying on the leaders and an occasional defender healing power to keep him topped up.

I wonder if this problem isn't "chicken and egg." There are more strikers, people who play are more likely to find a character concept they like that also happens to be a striker, and thus more strikers are released because people use strikers.

That's one of the questions I asked in my original post, but I don't think it's the case. If it were I'd expect the split of different roles seen in play to be more aligned with the split of classes by role in the books, yet strikers are still way ahead of the curve. I think it's the same behaviour that we see at work in an MMO: people want to play striker specs even if the class they're playing can fill other roles such as tank or healer.

With the list you gave you may not have a primary controller, but the Swordmage, Bard, Warlock and even Sorcerer have secondary controller effects. That's 80% of the group that's essentially multiclassed as a controller.

Isn't that one of the problems for a "pure" controller?...

Not at all. Controller abilities are really good to have. When you don't have a "pure" controller, you really need to make up for it somehow. Controllers and Defenders are really useful and, dare I say, necessary for party survival. Minions LOVE undefended, uncontrolled Striker groups. Cheap, low-XP puds rip them to shreds.

I think Tuft's point was that with so many classes being able to function as secondary controllers the pure controller classes have had their schtick stolen.

It seems to me that encouraging secondary roles is growing into 4E. If you read the classes in PH1 they are described in line with their role; you can build PH1 characters to fill a secondary role - even without multiclassing - but that is not how the classes are presented. Looking at the PH2 classes it's a different story: straight out of the gate in the class traits box specific secondary roles are highlighted.

What if PH3 were to loosen the definitions a little further and ends up being full of strikers who are capable of filling secondary roles? Unlikely, I know, but it seems like an interesting direction the design could go in.

 

[Hereticus]

Minotaur Fighter (great weapon)

Wait, you talk of "core" races/classes, aren't using the Swordmage but allow a Minotaur as a PC?!?!?!!?

There is a difference between what is "core", and what a DM will allow in his game.

Core = The DM should have a good reason to ban a class or race, and should not be done with too many of them.

Non-Core = Use or don't use at whim of DM.

And I never said that we did not allow the Swordmage.

 

[Remathilis]

Current Group (note: the game is based on the "For the Horde" element; all monster-races)

Minotaur Druid (controller)
Half-orc Warlord (leader - ME!)
Orc Warden (Defender)
Goblin Bard (leader) though originally created as a ranger, but bard fit so much better she changed up the second game.
Bugbear Rogue (striker)

 

[Rechan]

Controllers also help do damage over multiple enemies. Yes, small amounts of damage, but you reduce several enemies a few points, rather than one enemy several points.