Cleave and Great Cleave Question

[UltimaGabe]

Our group has never used Cleave and Great Cleave to get two attacks. In fact, we've never even thought of it. Are you sure this is how it is supposed to work?

I think we're all pretty sure it's NOT how it's supposed to work. You already had it right- the guy that posted this thread just decided to try and find a loophole to gain an extra attack.

 

[Aries_Omega]

Hmmm.....question

Now I been needing help then. Please correct me in how this should work.

Okay...here is the situation. You have a....ranger....for arguments sake that is. The ranger fights with paired weapons (longsword and shortsword) and has the feats and requirments for "great cleave". He is surrounded by goblins (or orcs for that matter) and goes to town. He hits the first goblin with his first attack (the longsword). He more then drops the goblin by a mile. Thus he cleaves the goblin right?

With the longsword then he can continue smacking goblins until such time that he cannot score enough damage for a cleave. Am I right so far?

Then with the shortsword which is in the off hand he can repeat the process above if the ranger scores a hit with enough damage. Am I right with this?

I ask since I was under the impression that with great cleave you can make multiple cleave attempts with a weapon, unlike regular cleave which allows only one attempt. Please educate me on what should happen.

AriesOmega

 

[Tatsukun]

Well, keeping in mind that he has to roll to attack for each of the goblins, you are right. If you have ‘great cleave’ you can keep killing goblins until you either miss one or hit it and don’t kill it or run out of Goblins. Or in other words, until you fail to ‘drop’ one.

If you just have ‘cleave’, you get only one extra attack. See below…

(With just cleave)

Roll an attack on Goblin A, if you hit it, roll damage, if you ‘drop’ it, roll a cleave attack on Goblin B.

If you hit Goblin B, roll damage. You’re done.

(With great cleave)

Roll an attack on Goblin A, if you hit it, roll damage, if you ‘drop’ it, roll a cleave attack on Goblin B.

If you hit Goblin B, roll damage, if you ‘drop’ it, roll a great cleave attack on Goblin C.

If you hit it, roll damage, if you ‘drop’ it, roll a great cleave attack on Goblin D…

(Continue until you are out of goblins, or miss one, or don’t ‘drop’ one).

-Tatsu

 

[Aries_Omega]

Thank you. I was just making sure. I been DMing for a long time but some aspects of d20 still get me.

AriesOmega

 

[RigaMortus]

I'll answer anyway

A Cleave must be with the same weapon that dropped the first opponent.

Therefore, so must a Great Cleave.

So even if you're holding a second weapon, both 'immediate attacks' are required to be with the same weapon, and so one can't happen 'immediately'.

-Hyp.

Aha! But what if he free-action, switches weapons from one hand to the other?

EDIT: What is the "time frame" on free-actions? Meaning, how much "time" does a free action take up? How much time does an "immediate action" or "immediate attack" take up? If they don't take up any time, then can't you effectively do one before the other, in which ever order you choose, w/o it having any adverse effects in the time stream continueum of D&D Combat Rounds?

 

[mikebr99]

Aha! But what if he free-action, switches weapons from one hand to the other?

Well, that interupts the theme of the feat, but stopping the swing that cut (cleaved) the last guy in two... because there was little left of him to slow down your swing at all, so it continued on, and into the next guy.


Mike

 

[MerakSpielman]

What if you kill somebody and for some reason they don't "drop?" What if you're standing in the middle of a table, and your targets are all seated at the table? If you attack one, he stays sitting, so do you get to cleave somebody else even though he didn't "drop?" Do Held creatures collapse when they die, or when the spell duration wears off? What if your target is in an anti-gravity field and rises when they die?

 

[Elephant]

What if you kill somebody and for some reason they don't "drop?" What if you're standing in the middle of a table, and your targets are all seated at the table? If you attack one, he stays sitting, so do you get to cleave somebody else even though he didn't "drop?" Do Held creatures collapse when they die, or when the spell duration wears off? What if your target is in an anti-gravity field and rises when they die?

I believe all of these examples fit the definition of 'drop' as used by the description of Cleave.

 

[RigaMortus]

Well, that interupts the theme of the feat, but stopping the swing that cut (cleaved) the last guy in two... because there was little left of him to slow down your swing at all, so it continued on, and into the next guy.


Mike

Theme of the feat? Who's talking about "theme" of the feat? I thought we were talking about the letter of the rules, rather than the spirit of the rules?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Aha! But what if he free-action, switches weapons from one hand to the other?

You can't. Then the attack wouldn't be immediate.

'Immediate' is 'right now, before anything else happens'. If you drop an opponent, the very next thing you do is to Cleave.

-Hyp.