Cleric of Gruumsh in a party with an Elf

[MechaTarrasque]

The big G doesn't get a lot of love for planning, but I figure you could easily decide that he is the orc Odin that hides being a master planner behind the poker face of being a crazy barbarian god. Under that scenario, He might have plans that supersede the normal "need" for orc clerics to attack elves (or at least that particular elf). If you decide to go this route, I would come up with the plan, and ask the player if they want their PC to be an active participant in the plan, not a willing participant but suspicious, or oblivious (only tell them the plan if they chose the first option). The plan could be really long-term (not directly affecting the adventure, but attracting attention from NPC's) which is a good plan if the player is unhappy with the notion.

 

[Oofta]

TLDR: I'm sure there will be other people who say that if your players are "mature" enough or play the game the "right way" that you should let it play out in game. I disagree, I think you need to sit the player of the cleric down and come up with a resolution where she is no longer a member of the party, or no longer a cleric of Gruumsh.

Longer version:
I have a confession. I hate inter-party conflict that rises to the level of PVP or someone leaving the party. Either as a player or a DM. I have enough grief in my life, I want my games to be more-or-less harmonious. People play for different reasons but I don't allow PVP in my games which I think should be inevitable in this scenario.

I don't think everybody is always happy singing kum-ba-ya linked arm-in-arm trading happy smiley faces. But it does mean that as a DM I would never have allowed this situation. Some character concept just don't work in a group game. I don't allow evil characters, and if the PC is truly dedicated to Gruumsh, they are or are going to become evil. If they don't enforce the will of Gruumsh, they will not be a cleric for very long. It may not be true in all campaigns, but Orcs in my world are evil monsters, not misunderstood noble humans with a bad skin condition. There are no "neutral" clerics of Grrumsh, any more than there are good clerics of Lollth.

So how to deal with this? Well, at the very beginning I would have said "no" to the concept. Group cohesion is more important than implementing the vision for a specific NPC. That's not how you decided it, so now the question is what to do about it.

You could handle it in game. The cleric gets urges to enforce the will of Gruumsh (sow chaos and destruction, make all elves suffer painfully before dying). If she fights these urges the visions get more brutal and she starts to lose control, at times having to roll a progressively more difficult wisdom save to not attack the elf. If she continues to fight off the urge, at some point she no longer receives spells. Choose a new god or a new class. If she does give in to the will of Gruumsh, obviously the cleric and the elf are not going to be part of the same party any more. Worst case scenario, one of the PCs will be dead.

That's not very satisfactory to me. Some people may love it, all I can say is that I would not. So I would have a frank discussion out of game and ask the player(s) what the envision happening. I'd make it clear that sooner or later, a cleric of Gruumsh will try to kill the elf if they want to continue to be a cleric. When that happens the cleric becomes an NPC (I make it clear there is no PVP in my game).

So I'd ask the player how they want to play it out. Explain the mechanism I plan on implementing (the wisdom saving throws mentioned above), and get feedback. Sometimes as a DM you have to make calls that will upset a player. If you want to involve the elf player or the rest of the group at some point, that's up to you. But when I set up a game I make it clear ... if I think your character is violating the basic social cohesion that holds the group together, I'll give you a warning. Ignore the warning and your PC becomes an NPC, write up a new character.

 

[Cyrinishad]

I'm going to echo the sentiment presented by Defcon & Cmad, and advise against driving a wedge between the PCs via the Divine Intervention of Gruumsh in the form of Dream Sequences... It also undermines the player's character concept by insisting that your concept of what it means to be a Cleric of Gruumsh is the "right" way and that their concept is the "wrong" way with a Divine Plot-Hammer that can't be avoided. Real-world religions have many different sects, divisions, interpretations, etc... It stands to reason that Fantasy religions would be the same, and that the PC should be encouraged to explore their own interpretation of their particular deity. Additionally, I think that Clerics can always prepare up to 3rd-Level spells without needing their deity to grant them directly, so that certainly gives a Cleric a fair amount of lee-way to have the "wrong" ideas about their deity without hamstringing their functionality.

However, the "Crisis of Faith" concept for this character is certainly one that should be explored... I tend to think it would be more effective to use NPCs to present the DMs perspective on Gruumsh, since these are tangible, interactive adversaries/allies/challenges that can be confronted, persuaded, etc...

Also, it would be tremendous if the Cleric turned the "Evil God Dreams" concept on its head by insisting that these dreams are just another nefarious trick by Corellon's Magic to perpetually slander the good name of Gruumsh, the "All-Seeing Noble Protector" of the Orc people.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

You guys are hitting all of my concerns really well. =)

The easiest response is, like some have mentioned, is just ignore it and keep going on...but that feels less like Role-Play. I mean I wouldn't be super down with having a Cleric of Cyric, Lord of Lies, being a chipper fellow who cares for the general well-being of his fellow man. But there is nothing in the rules that says he can't be right? =/

I will definitely have a chat with the player one-on-one, that much is a definite. I'm just not convinced on what approach to take. My gut is telling me to just lay down my thoughts and how Gruumsh is presented in our game (which is pretty much how he is described) and that as her character's devotion to Gruumsh deepens then so will her observance of his tenets.

 

[TheSword]

Keep it to bickering and antagonism, but don’t let it spill over into pvp conflict. As has been said, a little friction can go a long way to bringing characters to life.

Re: your Chris point. I would have to question now practical having the servant of a mad evil god in the party is? Better to pick one of the other four dozen gods to worship.

 

[Oofta]

You guys are hitting all of my concerns really well. =)

The easiest response is, like some have mentioned, is just ignore it and keep going on...but that feels less like Role-Play. I mean I wouldn't be super down with having a Cleric of Cyric, Lord of Lies, being a chipper fellow who cares for the general well-being of his fellow man. But there is nothing in the rules that says he can't be right? =/

I will definitely have a chat with the player one-on-one, that much is a definite. I'm just not convinced on what approach to take. My gut is telling me to just lay down my thoughts and how Gruumsh is presented in our game (which is pretty much how he is described) and that as her character's devotion to Gruumsh deepens then so will her observance of his tenets.

The other thing is that a low-level cleric may not be noticed, just like the CEO never pays much attention to a low level manager. But that cleric becomes the equivalent of a regional manager? Suddenly the boss starts to pay attention to their balance sheet and notice that not only is his power being used to aid someone other than his chosen people (orcs) it's being used to assist one of them. An elf. Spawn of his hated enemy. Somebody's going to have some explaining to do.

At least that's how I'd see it in my campaign. Clerics serve at the pleasure of the god, the gods do not bend to the will of individual clerics.

Good luck!

 

[Wiseblood]

I had a great campaign involving a cleric of Kelemvor (sp) the god of the dead and a dark necromancer. Lots of dramatic tension and roleplaying. In the end their ability to cooperate was because Kelemvor deemed it necessary so long as the shenanegains were kept to a minimum. This meant that each player considered their actions pretty carefully.

The elf can't not be an elf but the elf can still be an asset.

The cleric of Gruumsh sounds like they are already on board with cooperation. You just need to narrate that so that they both feel cool.

 

[aco175]

A lot of good thought in these responses. I also agree with not having PCs in the party that are evil or loners just to play something different. I have played in groups before with these players or PCs rather and they were not great. There is something for playing someone trying to reform and show growth into a hero.

I have also played in groups where there was light-hearted friction like in the Lord of the Rings movies between the dwarf and elf.

I might leave it up to the players to figure out a way that their characters can get along before I start sending groups of orcs against both of them- one for being an elf and the other for working with one.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I don't do PVP at my table. I just don't like DMing it. So in my Sessions 0s I explain to the players that their characters are expected to work together. They can have conflicting goals, they can have the characters actively hate each other, but they'll still find a reason to work together.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In a game I am running right now one of my players is playing a Half-Orc Noble Cleric of Gruumsh. Her backstory is that he was adopted by the fantasy version of Bradgelina and is rebelling against them. She is basically going with the idea that her character is double-downing on his Orcish heritage as part of the rebellion (and of course becoming an adventurer). During the concept stage I warned her that Gruumsh is an evil god (her character is not evil) and this may not be a good idea, but she went with it. The other party members right now are x2 Humans, a Halfling, and an Elf.
...
The Cleric has just hit level 3, so 2nd level spells are available. I want to treat this as his connection with Gruumsh is deepening.What are some of your thoughts on this situation?

This may be pretty far out there, but you could start painting Gruumsh to the cleric more as a racial god and less as an evil god. You could go two different ways with this. 1) you could rehabilitate orcs, rather like Star Trek did with Klingons, yes, they're savage and violent, but they have some core of ethics and morality, even if it's different and hard for humans to deal with, and the half-orc could come to terms with that, and also learn to be more accepting of his human side. 2) it's actually the cleric subtly turning evil, because some evil people don't really see themselves as evil, just as good people making tough choices and doing unpleasant things because the ends (justice for his orcish people who have been vilified and oppressed so long) justify the means (genocide of elves and enslaving other races - really, it's the elves that are the evil ones, and once the orcs have won they're rightful place they won't have to be savage/violent/ruthless anymore).