I am afraid, but if your PCs are into true roleplaying (which i believe is the case), there are two things programmed: Intra Party conflict up to PvP as well as the priest of Gruumsh alignment shifting to evil. Normally the elf should have deep aversions against the priest too, so it is two sided, adding fuel. The only way out i see is that the priest at some Point realizes he gets evil and Abandons his faith in Gruumsh. The other theoretical way involving the rest of the Party turning to evil will not resolve the situations since the priest will still hate the elf, no matter of ist alignment.
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Cleric of Gruumsh in a party with an Elf
- Thread starter WarpedAcorn
- Start date
Lucas Blackstone
Explorer
If you like the character and like the way the characters interact outside of the religious aspect then I would consider having the character actually be drawing power from another deity but not realize it. Specifically a trickery god who delights in swaying the misguided and convinces them to worship them instead. This could be direct intervention, or through agents who had visions and helped shape the events that cause the half orc to choose to worship this god posing as Gruumish.
It sounds like the half orc isn't actually evil but simply rebelling against their parents. It also makes for a great reveal later if you so choose. Depending on which domain the half orc chose, you should make that domain be second domain of said trickery god.
It's a bit of work on your end but this way all the players are happy ( I think? ), can get along despite seemingly not being able to, and there be a reason behind it.
It sounds like the half orc isn't actually evil but simply rebelling against their parents. It also makes for a great reveal later if you so choose. Depending on which domain the half orc chose, you should make that domain be second domain of said trickery god.
It's a bit of work on your end but this way all the players are happy ( I think? ), can get along despite seemingly not being able to, and there be a reason behind it.
akr71
Hero
How does the elf in the party feel about having a cleric of Gruumsh along? That is the real question to me.
As others have already stated, you get to play the NPCs - ramp up the tension with Gruumsh demanding more and more. Like one of his eyes! A cleric of Gruumsh with 2 eyes? Unheard of! Travelling with an elf? Beat it like the dog that it is!
I'm all for letting players make the character they want, but they also have to deal with the consequences of their choices. A cleric of Gruumsh is not going to be a non-evil character for long.
As others have already stated, you get to play the NPCs - ramp up the tension with Gruumsh demanding more and more. Like one of his eyes! A cleric of Gruumsh with 2 eyes? Unheard of! Travelling with an elf? Beat it like the dog that it is!
I'm all for letting players make the character they want, but they also have to deal with the consequences of their choices. A cleric of Gruumsh is not going to be a non-evil character for long.
This is the major issue with 'polytheistic' religions in RPGs... because there are so many gods it seems like each one only represents or gets ONE thing they and their followers find important. Thus Gruumsh defaults to "destruction!!!" and that's the first, last, and only thing that gets focused on for both the god and those that follow him.
Whereas [MENTION=6808925]Cyrinishad[/MENTION] made the absolutely correct point that...
The Silver Flame in the Eberron Campaign Setting does this to a T, and I think it's because it's a "singular deity" religion. Which means with only one god everyone is willing to think and write about all the different groupings within it, all the different sects and beliefs that come out of it, and for a supposedly "good" religion there are plenty of self-serving, holier-than-thou, or even downright "evil" members within it.
Why do we never give that same breadth and thought to individual gods within a polytheistic religion? We should. Every god has multiple things in their "spheres of influence", and each individual thing has many facets you can look at and use as which part of the god is important to you as a PC. Here's what the Forgotten Realms wiki lists as what is important to Gruumsh:
Gruumsh told his worshipers to do the following:
- Gather and breed, and your numbers shall flourish.
- Rise up in hordes and seize that which is rightfully yours.
- Raid. Kill. Conquer.
At face value, the easiest and most simplistic way to take it is "DESTROY EVERYTHING!". But what does that gain anyone within the religion? Sure, many worshippers will take these tenets at face value... but there would and should be others that take a more philosophical view of the tenets and try and suss out the underlying ideas of what Gruumsh might want.
If it was me, and I was going to play a halfork cleric of Gruumsh... while at the same time try and maintain party cohesion... I'd look at those three tenets and find a side aspect to his worship that could matter to me that wasn't JUST "kill, kill kill!!!"
And the the part that jumps out at me? It's Gruumsh's tenet of "Gather and breed, and your numbers shall flourish." So an important part of his ideals are maintaining the numbers of the orcish race. Orcs are hunted down and killed all the time by the other races, so procreation is exceedingly important so that they don't go extinct. That's quite possibly one of the reasons why halforks are probably the second most populous half-breed, because orcs will procreate with humans so that at least SOME part of the orcish line lives on (if a pure orc/orc birth is not possible). For your player's PC... perhaps it's BECAUSE of the fact that he's a halfork and grew up in the human world that he finds himself losing the orcish side of him. And Gruumsh is coming to him in order to help sustain orcish numbers. The PC isn't following Gruumsh because he wants to destroy everything... but in point of fact he wants to PROTECT the orcish race from extinction.
Looking at it through this prism, it can be exceedingly easy to not play the character as "evil". The PC could easily be "good"! Gruumsh has commanded some of his followers to keep the orcish race alive, so now the PC wants to reclaim his orc half, and do whatever it takes to make sure orcs as a race continue to thrive. Which might also mean working directly with the other races to try and come to a "live and let live" accord so that the orcs are not all hunted down and killed on sight.
Now yes, there would still definitely be a faction within the church of Gruumsh who would see this "live and let live" ideal of some Gruumsh worshippers as a great smokescreen for the eventual re-rise of their race and eventual conquering of everybody else... but that faction might have no impact or connection to your PC. Your player's PC could just be an evangelist or missionary out in the so-called "civilized" world, trying to bridge the gap between their races so that orcs (and halforks) have a better chance to survive and flourish. And the other aspects of destruction might never actually come into play (especially if it would cause an obvious divide between the halfork and elf players.)
At least... this is my opinion on the matter.
Whereas [MENTION=6808925]Cyrinishad[/MENTION] made the absolutely correct point that...
The Silver Flame in the Eberron Campaign Setting does this to a T, and I think it's because it's a "singular deity" religion. Which means with only one god everyone is willing to think and write about all the different groupings within it, all the different sects and beliefs that come out of it, and for a supposedly "good" religion there are plenty of self-serving, holier-than-thou, or even downright "evil" members within it.
Why do we never give that same breadth and thought to individual gods within a polytheistic religion? We should. Every god has multiple things in their "spheres of influence", and each individual thing has many facets you can look at and use as which part of the god is important to you as a PC. Here's what the Forgotten Realms wiki lists as what is important to Gruumsh:
Gruumsh told his worshipers to do the following:
- Gather and breed, and your numbers shall flourish.
- Rise up in hordes and seize that which is rightfully yours.
- Raid. Kill. Conquer.
At face value, the easiest and most simplistic way to take it is "DESTROY EVERYTHING!". But what does that gain anyone within the religion? Sure, many worshippers will take these tenets at face value... but there would and should be others that take a more philosophical view of the tenets and try and suss out the underlying ideas of what Gruumsh might want.
If it was me, and I was going to play a halfork cleric of Gruumsh... while at the same time try and maintain party cohesion... I'd look at those three tenets and find a side aspect to his worship that could matter to me that wasn't JUST "kill, kill kill!!!"
And the the part that jumps out at me? It's Gruumsh's tenet of "Gather and breed, and your numbers shall flourish." So an important part of his ideals are maintaining the numbers of the orcish race. Orcs are hunted down and killed all the time by the other races, so procreation is exceedingly important so that they don't go extinct. That's quite possibly one of the reasons why halforks are probably the second most populous half-breed, because orcs will procreate with humans so that at least SOME part of the orcish line lives on (if a pure orc/orc birth is not possible). For your player's PC... perhaps it's BECAUSE of the fact that he's a halfork and grew up in the human world that he finds himself losing the orcish side of him. And Gruumsh is coming to him in order to help sustain orcish numbers. The PC isn't following Gruumsh because he wants to destroy everything... but in point of fact he wants to PROTECT the orcish race from extinction.
Looking at it through this prism, it can be exceedingly easy to not play the character as "evil". The PC could easily be "good"! Gruumsh has commanded some of his followers to keep the orcish race alive, so now the PC wants to reclaim his orc half, and do whatever it takes to make sure orcs as a race continue to thrive. Which might also mean working directly with the other races to try and come to a "live and let live" accord so that the orcs are not all hunted down and killed on sight.
Now yes, there would still definitely be a faction within the church of Gruumsh who would see this "live and let live" ideal of some Gruumsh worshippers as a great smokescreen for the eventual re-rise of their race and eventual conquering of everybody else... but that faction might have no impact or connection to your PC. Your player's PC could just be an evangelist or missionary out in the so-called "civilized" world, trying to bridge the gap between their races so that orcs (and halforks) have a better chance to survive and flourish. And the other aspects of destruction might never actually come into play (especially if it would cause an obvious divide between the halfork and elf players.)
At least... this is my opinion on the matter.
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akr71
Hero
[MENTION=98938]DeF[/MENTION]CON1 offers some great ideas to think upon. I might add that Gruumsh is not the only Orc deity in the pantheon. Perhaps choosing Ilneval "The War Maker" or Bahgtru "The Leg Breaker" as a patron deity would make a better travelling companion for a party of non-orcs.
Tony Vargas
Legend
This isn't an answer, just a musing on how the game has evolved.
Back in 1e, the Clerics first two spell levels came from personal devotion, so a sincere believer who strayed from the church or the deity, but who's personal faith was still strong might still go around casting spells. Higher level spells filtered down from intermediaries of whatever sort served the deity. Starting, I think, at 5th (and 1e Cleric spells only went up to 7th), spells came from the god, itself. A Cleric could switch deities, but there were consequences.
IIRC 2e didn't change that, much, though the CPH went into more detail about deities and alternatives to deities (forces & philosophies). While 3e did not get so explicit about spells coming direct from the deity with it's approval, and even had a PrC, the ur-Priest, that 'stole' divine magic from the gods.
By 4e, divine classes received their power through a rite of investure prior to play beginning, and from that point developed those powers and used them as they saw fit, following the dictates of their own faith & conscience. A Cleric who deviated wildly from the tennets of his religion might be branded a heretic and hunted by others of his faith, but he would continue to wield divine power.
AFAIK, 5e, in keeping with it's design philosophy, leaves those sorts of things up to the DM.
Back in 1e, the Clerics first two spell levels came from personal devotion, so a sincere believer who strayed from the church or the deity, but who's personal faith was still strong might still go around casting spells. Higher level spells filtered down from intermediaries of whatever sort served the deity. Starting, I think, at 5th (and 1e Cleric spells only went up to 7th), spells came from the god, itself. A Cleric could switch deities, but there were consequences.
IIRC 2e didn't change that, much, though the CPH went into more detail about deities and alternatives to deities (forces & philosophies). While 3e did not get so explicit about spells coming direct from the deity with it's approval, and even had a PrC, the ur-Priest, that 'stole' divine magic from the gods.
By 4e, divine classes received their power through a rite of investure prior to play beginning, and from that point developed those powers and used them as they saw fit, following the dictates of their own faith & conscience. A Cleric who deviated wildly from the tennets of his religion might be branded a heretic and hunted by others of his faith, but he would continue to wield divine power.
AFAIK, 5e, in keeping with it's design philosophy, leaves those sorts of things up to the DM.
Sorry, I didn't read all of the previous posts, so I don't know if somebody already mentioned this . . .
The DM failed the group at Session Zero.
If you don't want PvP conflict in your group (as I certainly don't) then you need to make that clear as soon as somebody presents a character concept that can't work with other concepts in the group, whether it is a Holier-Than-Thou Paladin in a party of Tiefling Warlocks or an Elf-Hating Cleric of Gruumsh in a party with Elves.
One player's right to play the concept they want does not take priority over the rights of the rest of the group to enjoy their characters.
That is why I ALWAYS begin with the players creating a group concept before we even consider individual roles in that group. Once the group concept is in place the players are expected to follow this rule . . .
Your character must fit within the group concept and have reasons to work with the other members.
My advice for the OP is that the party goes their separate ways. The players in the larger group keep their characters. The players in the smaller group create new character's that can work with others, and their current characters become NPCs.
Consider this a learning experience and don't let players put you in this position again.
The DM failed the group at Session Zero.
If you don't want PvP conflict in your group (as I certainly don't) then you need to make that clear as soon as somebody presents a character concept that can't work with other concepts in the group, whether it is a Holier-Than-Thou Paladin in a party of Tiefling Warlocks or an Elf-Hating Cleric of Gruumsh in a party with Elves.
One player's right to play the concept they want does not take priority over the rights of the rest of the group to enjoy their characters.
That is why I ALWAYS begin with the players creating a group concept before we even consider individual roles in that group. Once the group concept is in place the players are expected to follow this rule . . .
Your character must fit within the group concept and have reasons to work with the other members.
My advice for the OP is that the party goes their separate ways. The players in the larger group keep their characters. The players in the smaller group create new character's that can work with others, and their current characters become NPCs.
Consider this a learning experience and don't let players put you in this position again.
Oofta
Legend
Just make sure to record it and upload the video to you-tube.
