D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[Einlanzer0]

I've had a lot of cognitive dissonance surrounding the way int, wis, and cha are conceptually handled in d&d over the years, and at this point I honestly think a lot of it can be attributed to the fact that clerics use Wisdom for their spellcasting mechanic, when that frankly attaches baggage to the score that is inappropriate. The entire concepts of willpower and devotion should revolve around Charisma, not Wisdom. Charisma is what enables a priest to emulate and draw power from the deities they serve. Wisdom is fundamentally about emotional maturity and the application of reason, which has little to do with piety and is the antithesis of dogma. Organized religion (regardless of its truth or lack of) is largely based on authority, and this is even more true in most D&D religions.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - I think Charisma makes about 600% more sense as a spellcasting stat for Clerics than wisdom. Wisdom should, at best, be supplemental for most spellcasters, with the possible exception of intuition or nature based magic.

Thoughts?

 

[Morinth]

That...actually makes a lot of sense.

I do think that Wisdom makes sense for healing magic, and since that's the primary focus of most clerics, I think that's why it got put there. I also think they wanted to have spellcasting tied to all of the mental attributes, but if anything, they could divide it up like so: Arcane: Intelligence; Divine: Charisma; Primal/Psionics: Wisdom.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Iry]

You're using wisdom when you read your religious scripture/books/runes/twigs and divine from them moral lessons that you can share and apply in a practical fashion to your life and the lives of others. It also helps you figure out the true intentions and desires of your God.

Social skills are definitely great for gaining rank and spreading the word, but you don't need to do either of those things to become a level 20 Cleric.

 

[Satyrn]

What [MENTION=6777378]Iry[/MENTION] said.

Though you could apply Charisma to an Evangelical sort of. . . I was gonna say "relationship with your god". . . but I realized that it'd be more for a relationship with your flock.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think that Charisma makes sense for confidence, but not willpower.

Intelligence is knowing that smoking is bad for you, Wisdom is not starting/quitting. Charisma doesn't even enter the equation. As such, it is reasonable to associate Wisdom with willpower. IMO, piety can only arise out of wisdom, because wisdom enables you to grasp the spirit of the rules of the faith, rather than simply following the letter of the rule.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Oofta]

In my games, there's a reason why there are battle clerics (PCs) and priests (NPC pastors and ministers) are not necessarily one and the same. An evangelist may have a sky-high charisma and be very good at convincing others that they speak for their god. A wise cleric has a spiritual connection and deep understanding of the nature of their deity but not be adept at convincing others of their wisdom.

I think the ability hold up reasonably well. I know people who have very high intelligence but no common sense. Strong people that are clutzes. People (certain political candidates come to mind) that are very persuasive idiots.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think it's very fluid, and I try to shift things around a little bit when calling for checks and saves.

I agree that Charisma better handles "force of personality". But I think [MENTION=6801204]Satyrn[/MENTION] really nails it when saying Wisdom is "understanding", both of the message you receive from your gods, understanding how best to filter it through your force of personality and of course, Wisdom is also the stat used for nature and healing checks, in a proper understanding of the natural body.

Intelligence is knowledge, raw, unrefined.

Wisdom is understanding, knowing that you know not.

Charisma is your force of personality and how much that knowledge and understanding affects you, and those you teach it to.

 

[seebs]

I've had a lot of cognitive dissonance surrounding the way int, wis, and cha are conceptually handled in d&d over the years, and at this point I honestly think a lot of it can be attributed to the fact that clerics use Wisdom for their spellcasting mechanic, when that frankly attaches baggage to the score that is inappropriate. The entire concepts of willpower and devotion should revolve around Charisma, not Wisdom. Charisma is what enables a priest to emulate and draw power from the deities they serve. Wisdom is fundamentally about emotional maturity and the application of reason, which has little to do with piety and is the antithesis of dogma. Organized religion (regardless of its truth or lack of) is largely based on authority, and this is even more true in most D&D religions.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - I think Charisma makes about 600% more sense as a spellcasting stat for Clerics than wisdom. Wisdom should, at best, be supplemental for most spellcasters, with the possible exception of intuition or nature based magic.

Thoughts?

I don't think this is really right at all. Clerical power comes from understanding their religion's teachings, not from force of personality. They're conduits for someone else's power, they're not primarily using their own emotions or ability to project their feelings.