D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[seebs]

Why, then, are paladins different?

Because they are driven by their own conviction, not by their faith in a divine entity. Paladins don't need a patron.

 

[seebs]

I think perhaps the problem is the two-meanings of willpower. When it comes to Wisdom, willpower would be your ability to remain on your own path and kind of pick up on signs of deception in order to avoid it. When it comes to Charisma, that sort of willpower is being able to get people to do what you like, even if against their own desires.

One is defensive and one is offensive, but I think you can see how they work out.

In fact, maybe you can line up the mental stats and the physical stats.

Strength & Charisma - Ability to apply pressure to others.
Dexterity & Intelligence - Ability to avoid situations or find your way into an advantageous one to apply pressure correctly.
Constitution & Charisma - Ability to resist pressures being placed upon you and to endure longer in order to apply pressure to others.

I think the last one should be "Constitution & Wisdom", and yes, this parallel works quite well. There's one force, one agility, and one durability stat in each set.

 

[Oofta]

No, they explicitly gain their magical power before they take an oath, explicitly cast their spells like a cleric does, and the only spell-based boon their oath provides them is access to a handful of additional spells.

According to the PHB it is the paladin's devotion to righteousness (as they see it) that grants them their power. They only specialize/focus at 3rd level.

...oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.

A paladin is not a cleric. How a paladin works has no impact on clerics and wisdom.

 

[cmad1977]

To me a cleric is a true metaphysical scholar in regards to his faith who has been trained to protect himself and others.
A paladin is an inspirational/frightening warrior.

 

[mrpopstar]

No, they explicitly gain their magical power before they take an oath, explicitly cast their spells like a cleric does, and the only spell-based boon their oath provides them is access to a handful of additional spells.

A paladin's oath is the source of their power.

Explicitly.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Oh no. It had to come around eventually. Did you know that strength is also correlated to overall health (constitution)? And that there is a correlation between dexterity and agility?

And that the various mental abilities probably also have some correlation (not sure what the correlation coefficient is, but r would be positive).

So, really, if you're going for realism, I think you're going to need a lot more abilities.* And, probably, you shouldn't be determining them all independently of each other. But I would love to hear how your playtest works- give us an update.

*Sure, you can have a "spellcasting" ability, but does it really make sense that a person would be equally adept at casting Cleric spells, Druid Spells, Sorcerer Spells, Bard Spells, Warlock Spells, and Wizard Spells because of some hidden ability (we can call it "g")? In other words, the innate magic power would make someone an equally good Cleric as a Wizard? Maybe you should have multiple spellcasting abilities as well?

Clearly they are all correlated. We aren't talking about a binary here, we're talking about a continuum. My point was that strength and agility have a much closer connection than agility and dexterity, which actually have much less of a connection, and I cited an example of why. You can be adapted for speed and reflexes but that doesn't mean you can manipulate tools well, and vice versa. On the other hand, you cannot be agile without also being strong, and the opposite is mostly true as well.

To me, it actually does make sense. At the end of the day, you are simply channeling magical energies. Where the magic comes from is relatively unimportant. There are other things that would matter as well, though, which is why I like the idea of keeping secondary bits of functionality for other stats.

 

[pemerton]

Because they are driven by their own conviction, not by their faith in a divine entity. Paladins don't need a patron.

A paladin is not a cleric. How a paladin works has no impact on clerics and wisdom.

Yet the rules say that they cast spells as clerics do.

 

[Oofta]

Yet the rules say that they cast spells as clerics do.

And? I would agree that as far as game mechanics go, they cast spells like clerics. The PHB explicitly states that "Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god." PHB page 82.

On the other hand, "Clerics are intermediaries between the mortal world and the distant planes of the gods." PHB page 56.

Comparing paladins and clerics is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are both fruit and we eat them. Paladins and clerics both cast spells and use the same game mechanics when doing so. That's all.