Cloak of Invisibility: Best item in the game?

[AllisterH]

I agree with you that Orcus isn't what people should be focusing on (switch out Orcus for a proper level foe and you still have that problem)

However, the problem I think isn't actually the cloak which _IS_ a strong item but Divine Regeneration (this is the 2nd combo-trick I've seen that hangs on Divine Regeneration).

re: Invulnerability vs Invisibility
That's actually an easy comparison. As you pointed out yourself, the stealthiest of the stealth get crazy good with the invisibility cloak however, the benefit _IS_ tied very strongly to optimization (Maxxed out dex, skill training + skill focus, + racial beanie).

Whereas the invulnerability scarab works irrespective of the build of the character.

Again, this is similar to the problem with blade cascade as others pointed out that if you allow a power to be min-maxxed, the optimizers will break it and trying to nerf if will make it an useless item for the non-optimizers.

Not sure what the solution is....

 

[Zurai]

No, the greatness of the Cloak of Invisibility is that you DON'T have to have maxed out everything to use it well. Just Skill Training will make your Stealth equal the Perception of all but a bare handful of monsters. You don't really NEED to add anything else to it - and how many characters put an 8 in Dex at character creation, anyway? Anyone else will have at least a +1 on top of Skill Training by the time they can find a Cloak of Invis.

Also, Divine Regen has nothing to do with it. Invisi-Ranger could do everything he can do without it, including killing any monster in the book that doesn't have blindsight, tremorsense, or truesight. Don't forget he has a second wind, mass cure light wounds, healing word, and divine recovery. He effectively has over 400 hit points.

 

[Lore Raithbone]

Also, Divine Regen has nothing to do with it. Invisi-Ranger could do everything he can do without it, including killing any monster in the book that doesn't have blindsight, tremorsense, or truesight. Don't forget he has a second wind, mass cure light wounds, healing word, and divine recovery. He effectively has over 400 hit points.

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Okay, thats out of the way; I completely agree with you. You can still use stealth (and your daily powers) to hide from Orcus/other enemies as normal. However, with a modest investment in Stealth, which is not a bad idea in general, the cloak is simply too good. Unless a monster has some way to defeat invisibility, with this cloak any ranged attacker becomes (for an encounter) effectively immune to their attacks.

Even high level Defenders would want this item, as a Paladin or Fighter you can't see marking you is terribly powerful (again, they have to invest 2 feats into stealth). Scale fighter with a light shield, heavy blade, the heavy blade opportunity feat, and this cloak makes for a nasty, nasty combo. There are plenty of Paladin powers that go off when a marked foe decides to attack someone else too (though the Paladin must end every round adjacent to the target, so to be honest its better for the Fighter).

The real nasty thing would be if everyone in the party took this as their neck slot item, and honestly there is no reason not too. When you absolutely, positively need to win an encounter, its just a monumentally better tactic and item to have than anything else.

The problem is, as a DM it would never become an issue, but then again I can fix any problem power in the game... its just so good I don't even really know how to fix it while maintaining a good power-parity. Make it "if you take any damage"?

 

[Zurai]

The problem is, as a DM it would never become an issue, but then again I can fix any problem power in the game... its just so good I don't even really know how to fix it while maintaining a good power-parity. Make it "if you take any damage"?

My suggested fix, a couple pages back, was "You become invisible until the end of the encounter or until you are hit by an attack". You can still dance through auras that way, but any attack will break the effect, and there are few epic-tier encounters that don't have at least one AOE monster. It becomes a good choice, but not a no-brainer.

 

[drquestion]

I'm still just not seeing how this is overpowered. You're focusing on what the cloak does - 1/day, if you're maxed for stealth, you'll probably be invisible and undetected the whole encounter.

That's fine. That's what the cloak is meant to do - I agree with your interpretation of that. Rather than thinking about this as the ranger solo (which is not going to be the case in most campaigns), think about what happens in the context of a group.

Being invisible adds a little to his expected damage output - because he's got combat advantage all the time - but a +2 to hit for the encounter certainly isn't going to make a drastic change, especially at epic levels.

So, what's left is that the ranger is more or less impossible to target with melee or ranged attacks (he still might end up getting caught in a burst or blast if he's not careful, or he's fighting in a small area).

As someone pointed out earlier, the primary effect of this is to shunt any damage he might have taken onto the rest of the party. It's not as if the monsters who might have attacked him earlier are just going to stand around if they can't find him - they'll try to kill his friends, then worry about him later.

And the ranger can do this 1/day. I just don't think it's going to be a problem for a typical campaign. Maybe in some kind of corner case where everyone is built like this, but that seems pretty unlikely.

Divine regeneration is much, much worse than this, because the character is not only close to invulnerable (it's really hard for enemies to dish out more than 30 damage per round on a sustained basis), he's also soaking up damage that would have otherwise hit the rest of the party, which the invisible guy is not.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but according to my reading of RAW, a character who attacks is no longer considered hidden (pg 188, under the success condition of stealth).

I see nothing to negate this on pg 281 (which seems, to me at least, to relate to targeting invisible creatures outside of them communicating their position, and is also relevant to attacking creatures because they auto-stealth at the end of their turn).

Thus, I would say that as soon as the invisible character attacks, creatures know which square it made the attack from (though it retains Total Concealment, and would get the automatic Stealth check at the end of it's turn to become hidden again).

It could certainly move after the attack, but it will only get so far, significantly increasing the chance that it's square will be targeted, particularly by large area effects.

Assuming for the moment that I am correct, coupled with the facts that the cloak is epic and only functions for one encounter each day, I wouldn't consider it overpowered. The Scarab of Invulnerability is certainly useful in it's own right.

I could only see the cloak being too good if everyone had one and the DM consistently allowed the players to have only one encounter each day (but at that point much of 4e's balance goes straight out the window).

I suspect that it is Divine Regeneration that is too strong. Regen 30 for an entire encounter is, IMO, too good.

 

[Zurai]

Invisible creatures are not hidden. The rules are very, very clear that invisibility offers two things:

Total Concealment from creatures that cannot see you (truesight).
A Stealth vs Passive Perception check to be completely undetected.

Creatures can choose to make active Perception checks to detect you if they have reason to. Being attacked would be a reason. Seeing the character go invisible would be a reason.

Note that there's nothing at all in the Invisible description or in the Targeting Creatures You Can't See sidebar that references being hidden.


So, yes, you're right that, RAW, attacking removes the Hidden condition.
You're wrong in that the Hidden condition has absolutely nothing to do with the Invisible condition.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not adding much to this interesting thread, but tbh, I'm totally down with this. If someone builds their character that way and the DM chooses to let them get this item, then, cool, I guess.

 

[Destil]

and how many characters put an 8 in Dex at character creation, anyway?

A) Fighters, Rangers (Two-Weapon Str & Con based), Wizards, Warlords, Warlocks, Clerics and Paladins are all rather viable for 8 Dex. Meaning 10 at Epic.
B) Armor Check. Plenty of people will not be starting at +0
C) There's enough feats that skill training can not be a given.
D) You need way more than skill training. The other stealth related feats take out huge penalties and let you move fast. Strip all of those, and the ranger stealth / mobility powers, and pinpointing your guy is a lot easier.
E) Melee types don't get much out of this. That many fewer squares to hide in.
F) Allow me to introduce Aid Another. Something that's actually broken. Minions were built for this. He may not be part of the problem, but Orcus' allies can all use Aid Another every round. Automatic +20 right there.
G) Active perception check is a standard action. How often the opposed roll happens is still up in the air per the RAW... but the baddie could be getting twice as many rolls depending on how you read those rules.
H) I also agree with the assertion that Divine Regeneration is part of the problem. Let's see this without demigod.... (which is another +1 for the Dex bump)
I) Also, not everyone wants to wear armor that can have Stealth bonuses on it... how many resources have you allocated to stealth here, total?

So, all in all it's an excelent item for a stealthy PC. And not so good for many many others.

 

[Zurai]

A) Fighters, Rangers (Two-Weapon Str & Con based), Wizards, Warlords, Warlocks, Clerics and Paladins are all rather viable for 8 Dex. Meaning 10 at Epic.

Wizards, Warlords, and Warlocks I'll give you. They have a use for Intelligence. No one else is going to dump Dex when they could dump Int instead. Dex is unquestionably a better stat than Int. It does everything Int does AND adds to Initiative (except for skills, where it doesn't really matter if you're deciding which to dump - it's going to be a difference of +1 at most). You'll see far, far more stupid characters than clumsy ones.

D) You need way more than skill training. The other stealth related feats take out huge penalties and let you move fast.

What "other stealth related feats"? The only one is Secret Stride.

Strip all of those, and the ranger stealth / mobility powers, and pinpointing your guy is a lot easier.

What Ranger stealth/mobility powers? Invisi-Ranger doesn't use any of them. He doesn't need to, thanks to the Cloak.

H) I also agree with the assertion that Divine Regeneration is part of the problem. Let's see this without demigod.... (which is another +1 for the Dex bump)

I already showed the math without Divine Regeneration. I-R has over 400 effective hit points and orcus only deals about 320 before he keels over if he's in range of I-R every single round of the fight.

how many resources have you allocated to stealth here, total?

A skill choice, two feats out of nineteen (neither of which is strictly necessary), and one magic item out of 11 (which also provides a bonus to Athletics, btw).

For the ability to be unkillable for one encounter per day, that's pretty cheap.