cold spell in a cold land... why?

[Particle_Man]

Roleplaying wise, I can see the theme, but it makes more sense for a frost biped in a cold land to use a flaming sword and fire spells than a frosty sword and cold spells. Cold stuff does extra damage vs. "average critters" (polar bears, gnolls, etc.) but so does Fire stuff. In addition, fire stuff does extra damage against the cold-subtype critters that live in your land, and (contrary to other campaigns, apparently) usually do not live in mutual peace and harmony, just waiting for those nasty fire creatures to invade so that they can all band together in the name of, uh, coldness. A frost giant will likely fight cold creaturesr a lot more than fire creatures. So put me down on the side of the weapon of mass destuction: the flame blade weilding, fireball casting frost giant!

 

[Trickstergod]

One thing that's been neglected here:

D&D is about rules. Simple rules. More or less. It doesn't overly complicate itself with needing such and such materials for this magic item and, while it does mention spell components, really doesn't make too much of a big deal for anything that doesn't have a coin cost attached to it. So it doesn't go into the minutae of things.

It's also about letting folk be fairly free to do as they wish while also maintaining balance. As such, it doesn't go too much into systems where doing this in such and such a place is restricted, or if you do things in this fashion, it becomes much easier to perform.

However, while the rules may not necessarily cover it, it only makes sense that working ice magic in an icy climate is easier and, by that same token, that performing fire magic in an icy climate is similarly more difficult to do.

As has already been brought up with sorcerers, chances are any born in a winter clime will naturally gain frost-based spells. Same with cold subtype monsters that have sorcerer-like spellcasting.

As for magic items, keep in mind that crafting those that do cold-based damage and the like probably entail ingredients that the monster has readily on hand. Need three pints of frost giant blood for that icy axe? Well, the frost giant making the axe probably has that to spare over the creation process. I see the gold pieces required to make a magic item, in part, just being generic indicators for special components like that. So making an ice-based weapon would probably be super cheap for a frost giant or white dragon.

And, conversely, a fire item of some sort would be that much more expensive.

It's not just a matter of theme, it's also a matter of what makes sense. Chances are, powerful fire magic will be rare and generally impeded in a cold climate. I probably wouldn't penalize a player who wanted to make a fire-based item here or there in a cold climate, but I'd definitely be restrictive for anything large scale in such an area. The place just wouldn't be conducive to it.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I was wandering what people was thinking about it.
I did not know it was a so hot topic.

I'm sure they didn't mean to give you the cold shoulder.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Can't speak for the other thread, but I don't recall anyone here mentioning that following the theme or pattern most of the time makes it that much more interesting when you choose to diverge.

A whole bunch of frost giants running around with fire weapons is no more interesting than giving them all frost weapons. And giving them all random or really, really efficient weapon types is similarly uninteresting. Having a baseline by design, however, to which each DM can tailor interesting exceptions, makes for a fun experience, IMO.

Generally, Frost giants have Frost-y weapons. Their general icy-ness and that of their environment, etc, etc. It's a simple theme that fits player expectation. But perhaps the Frost giant king, in his youth was a great hunter and hero of his people. He single-handedly slew a Remorhaz. When he withdrew his blade from the beast, it was imbued with the flames. After that, he could be a hero of his people who carries this dreadful weapon as a badge of honor or a bloodthirsty tyrant who conquered his own people with this abomination of fire and now rules them with an iron fist.

Now that character makes the players take notice. It would be the same if he quenched his newforged blade in the blood of a blue dragon and it became imbued with lightning or something. That character has something unique about it. In a straight combat scenario, he could come as a surprise. The characters would be all insulated against cold and be a bit surprised when lightning starts frying people. Or, in a more stealthy or story-driven group, they would be able to learn about this guy ahead of time, and maybe prepare for him (also conveniently allowing the DMing to drop some fun flavor-text and history on them ).

Difference for the sake of difference is no more imaginative than theme-matching. Who cares after the first 30 seconds about an entire group of Frost giants with Dancing weapons? But one unusual giant in the group with a Dancing weapon is interesting.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A creature of the Cold subtype carrying around a flaming broadsword is either stupid or insane. About like a lycanthrope carrying around a silver weapon: you might find it useful when fighting other lycanthropes, but if you get disarmed, you're probably going to die by your own blade.

I dunno, man...a lot of creatures have venom that the creature isn't immune to. Classically, the medusa wasn't immune ot her own gaze. In "survival of the fittest" terms, think about nuclear development...it's the one thing that can severely cripple an entire nation, and yet the risk of them being used against us is one of the very reasons we develop it. The way we prevent that is security -- in D&D terms, perhaps the chained gauntlet that makes it impossible to be disarmed.

I know the chance of being disarmed or having that item stolen doesn't really stop the party wizard from grabbing a wand of magic missile, and it doesn't stop the party fighter from picking up a frostbrand (even if, let's say, his party cleric is a cleric of a fire god and cannot protect the fighter from cold damage....for some reason). I don't know very many rangers who don't pick up a bane weapon for their favored enemy, even if their favored enemy is the same type they are.

If they *don't* use the ambient fire powers to their own advantage, then the first creature who does (through perhaps a genetic glich, or a lost population recently awakened, or maybe an adventurer) is going to run rampant over everything.

This isn't, of course, to say they wouldn't use frost, or that other energies wouldn't play a part. Indeed, as argued above, cold energy may simply be easier to gain in cold environments, making it more common. But depending on where your critters live, they should be aware of and make good use of fire, too. I mean, they use weapons and armor made of steel, unless they have some cold forge, they're going to need to master the controlled use of fire. And once they have that forge, that volcano, that geothermal vent, fire should come pretty easily, too...need a salamander scale and frost giant blood? Well, hop on down to the forges, where salamanders sometimes creep through, and then head up to the glaciers, where the frost giants live.

Frost will definately be used, maybe even taken for granted. But fire's not going to be uncommon, especially among the more intelligent and powerful creatures. Much like a nuclear arms race, they're going to be pouring rescources into the development and mastery of fire, because it is the most effective weapon up there. They're not going to neglect frost, and frost will probably definately be more common, but fire is an important rescource, and for them not to make use of it is just silly superstition on their part. I wouldn't be surprised if bog beasts were affraid of it, but I'd be mighty surprised if frost giant sorcerers didn't specifically undergo practices to hone fire powers. And given the alignment of most of these critters, I don't think that any arms race would be a peaceful standoff, rather I think they'd be using it at every opportunity, even against their own people, using it to threaten, bully, harass, and keep themselves in power. They may even try to limit it at the lower levels -- if you need forge access to develop fire skill, the frost giant kings may outlaw such things, especially for the commoners. But by the time you're facing the top predators and the kings themelves, they should be breaking out the fire guns. Not all the time, mind you -- frost is still common, easy, and popular. But enough to make sure that any party preparing to fight an ice monster of this caliber with fire spells and effects is going to find their efforts seriously thwarted. Which will, of course, send them into using other energies.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

KM,

Not sure the "evolutionary" thought process works here. You're assuming these things think the same way we do. Why should they? They are connected in a fundamental way to one of the building blocks of their universe.

Alternatively, I can appeal to a way they are probably just like us: hubris. We humans (and probably any sentient race) think we're pretty impressive. Human artifacts, behaviors, etc are always more impressive to the average person than those of other creatures. Why should a mystical D&D creature be any different? If I had the fire subtype, I would almost certainly be firmly convinced that Fire is the greatest thing in the unniverse. I'm partially composed of it after all and we have a kinship and affinity. Water/ice, on the other hand, would be inherently alien to me. Lightning, earth, etc would be relatively neutral. I might use a lightning-based weapon, but I would not be as convinced of its superior power, superior feel in my hand, and even its moral superiority as I would be if it were of fire.

You could make a case that the first frost giant to pick up a flaming sword would instantly have an advantage over other frost giants, and you might be right, but I expect the psychological discomfort of wielding it would get to be a problem.

If "survival of the strongest weapon" and superior firepower were more important than a creature's fundamental nature, than Galadriel or Gandalf really, really should have taken that ****ing ring from Frodo, after all.

EDIT: to clarify that I don't define the success of Frost giants with non-Frosty weapons over other Frost giants with the standard frostiness as anything resembling an actual evolutionary process, but that it is akin to the "Survival of the fittest" maxim that 90% of the public thinks IS evolution, thanks to our atrocious educational system.

 

[Incenjucar]

Evolution as an unguided process works the same in any situation (unless, say, you have some deranged effect, like dead things reproduce faster than living things, in which case, evolution just has a different method, because dying, now, is how you survive) so long as genetic information is passed on through reproduction.

If you reproduce, your traits get passed on. If you die before you can do so, they don't. If everyone dies before they reproduce, your species is dead.

If not genetic evolution, certainly social evolution.