Combat Challenge and Opportunity Attack

[Chen_93]

Not true, though ...

If you think of the shift as being on the stack, and you play a "reduce damage dealt by target spell to zero, draw a card." .. you can resolve your card, then play "counter target green spell." since the hurricane is still on the stack.

Well looking at it from a pure MTG point of view I'd say it'd look like:

Shift on the stack.
OA from Warpriest on the stack (triggered by the shift)
OA from Warpriest resolves.
Combat Challenge Mark goes on the stack.
Combat Challenge Mark resolves (target is re-marked)
Note: shift is already on the stack and thus does not trigger Combat Challenge again.
Shift resolves.

Now this isn't exactly what happens for 4th Ed. Its not terribly clear when triggered actions (whether OA or combat challenge) are triggered. Is it the declaration of a shift? Is it when a shift happens?

In the first case it works the same as Magic and the double attack does not work.

In the second case, any interrupt would actually need to "re-wind" time so that it occurs before the triggered action "happens". In this case the double attack thing WOULD work because once the first interrupt was finished the shift would "happen" (for lack of a better word) again which would trigger the combat challenge, which would rewind time and get to happen before the shift.

Note, however, that in that last case the double attack would only occur if the warpriest OA missed, because as a fighter your OAs that hit stop movement. As such the shift would never "happen" for a second time, thus not triggering the combat challenge.

 

[DM_Blake]

Besides which, smart fleeing people shift with their move action, then run away with a converted standard action )

And then they die when the person they're fleeing uses a run action to almost catch them, then a charge action to catch and attack them.

Assuming two humans. One flees. He shifts 1 square, then runs 8 squares. He is only 9 squares away.

The human chasing him can run then charge a total of 16 squares while still landing an attack. I honestly don't recall if charging gets the extra two squares of movement or not. If it does, the pursuer goes 16 squares, if not, the pursuer goes 14 squares.

So, the only way it is possible to run away with any chance of surviving is to provoke the OA, then use a double run move to get as a far as possible, then hope your pursuer is slower than you or else he can still run/charge and whack you every round (unless charge doesn't get the 2 square run bonus, in which case you just might live - maybe).

And of course, if your pursuer can mark you and prevent your initial attempt to get away, you're hosed - suck it up and swing your weapon and pray for critical hits...

Maybe the only ones who can ever survive an attempt to flee are eladrin. At least their teleport won't be prevented by a marking fighter's OA. But unless they are significantly faster than the fighter, they can't teleport+run far enough to prevent a run+charge from reaching them, either.

So, really, nobody flees. Ever. No chance. Just stand and fight...

 

[Chen_93]

And then they die when the person they're fleeing uses a run action to almost catch them, then a charge action to catch and attack them.

Assuming two humans. One flees. He shifts 1 square, then runs 8 squares. He is only 9 squares away.

The human chasing him can run then charge a total of 16 squares while still landing an attack. I honestly don't recall if charging gets the extra two squares of movement or not. If it does, the pursuer goes 16 squares, if not, the pursuer goes 14 squares.

So, the only way it is possible to run away with any chance of surviving is to provoke the OA, then use a double run move to get as a far as possible, then hope your pursuer is slower than you or else he can still run/charge and whack you every round (unless charge doesn't get the 2 square run bonus, in which case you just might live - maybe).

And of course, if your pursuer can mark you and prevent your initial attempt to get away, you're hosed - suck it up and swing your weapon and pray for critical hits...

Maybe the only ones who can ever survive an attempt to flee are eladrin. At least their teleport won't be prevented by a marking fighter's OA. But unless they are significantly faster than the fighter, they can't teleport+run far enough to prevent a run+charge from reaching them, either.

So, really, nobody flees. Ever. No chance. Just stand and fight...

Your analysis is true if you're alone with the monster. With your allies present you can make a pretty decent withdrawal. Sure the monster can follow you (as you said) but if you're retreated properly this will probably be fairly costly to the monster (via OAs or whatever from the rest of your group).

 

[dark666105]

no what i was saying was that there can only be one MARK (features that specifically denote they are a MARK) on the target at a time.

player A and B both have mark abilities

mob 1 gets marked with players A mark, player B tries to mark mob 1, nothing happens, its already marked.

OR

mob 1 gets marked by player A, player B tries to mark mob 1, player B's mark goes on, thus knocking player A's mark off.

so really you cant have something like a conflict of 3 different marks on one mob.

 

[WampusCat43]

wut?

 

[Kordeth]

But .. if you're a fighter/warpriest, and you mark the target with the warpriest mark (you can choose not to combat challenge), then that bonus attack is an OA .. which gives you bonuses for Wis, combat reflexes, etc.
Now, you make your OA, and that's an attack ... so now apply combat challenge mark (which overrides the warpriest mark).

This step isn't even necessary--you don't have to mark a target with Combat Challenge to get the interrupt attack. The wording, even in the errata, is clear: "an enemy marked by you." Any ability that lets you mark a target can trigger the extra attack from Combat Challenge (see for example warrior's challenge, fighter attack 17).

Since your OA interrupted the target's shift, the question becomes .. can you trigger your combat challenge class feature to get an attack 'cos it's shifting?

Yes, because any enemy marked by you triggers your Combat Challenge attack.

 

[Nebulous]

*sigh* Myself and the fighter in my group finds these abilities confusing. I wish they had at least replaced the word "combat" in one of the names with "battle" just to help differentiate them.

Can you or can you not stop a Shift with Combat Superiority? I thought no. It only stops actual movement as defined by your base speed.

 

[Mirtek]

Can you or can you not stop a Shift with Combat Superiority? I thought no. It only stops actual movement as defined by your base speed.

The no is correct. However your reasoning is wrong.

Combat Superiority can not stop a shift because Combat Superiority only triggers on OAs.

The attack granted by Combat Challenge against a shifting foe is not an OA. Because of that this attack neither gets Wis-mod as a to hit bonus nor does it stop movement

Would you apply Combat Superiority (+wis to attack roll and stopping movement) to attacks made by Combat Challenge? RAW would say not, because Combat Challenge is an immediate action and not an OA. I think the spirit of Combat Superiority would let you. Or would being able to stop movement twice be to OP?

It's not being able to stop movement which would make this OP, it's the ability to get your Wis-mod as to hit bonus. Especially heavy blade fighters would basically never miss with an OA if the also take blade opportunits in addition to the added wis bonus.

Many parts of the rule indicate that during some earlier stage CC did grant OAs but was later and changed to it's current form (most likely of the potential OPnes).

 

[Kordeth]

*sigh* Myself and the fighter in my group finds these abilities confusing. I wish they had at least replaced the word "combat" in one of the names with "battle" just to help differentiate them.

Can you or can you not stop a Shift with Combat Superiority? I thought no. It only stops actual movement as defined by your base speed.

Combat Superiority lets you stop any movement if you make an opportunity attack. Combat Challenge is not an OA, it's an immediate interrupt. If you acquire a power or ability that lets you take an OA against a shifting opponent (like the Warpriest's Challenge being discussed here), then yes, you can stop a shift with Combat Superiority. It has nothing to do with the type of movement and everything to do with the type of attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

But .. if you're a fighter/warpriest, and you mark the target with the warpriest mark (you can choose not to combat challenge), then that bonus attack is an OA .. which gives you bonuses for Wis, combat reflexes, etc.

Almost correct. It is an OA, BUT....

Now, you make your OA, and that's an attack ... so now apply combat challenge mark (which overrides the warpriest mark).
Since your OA interrupted the target's shift, the question becomes .. can you trigger your combat challenge class feature to get an attack 'cos it's shifting?

Why go through all this craziness? Combat Challenge's immediate interrupt doesn't care how you marked a target, so long as it was marked by you. It could have been with Combat Challenge, or with any other ability, Including the warpriest's ability. That means that because a marked target attacked adjacent to you, the Warpriest's ability lets you deal an OA (with the +wis to hit) AND you also get to deal your immediate interrupt from Combat Challenge. No need to remark him whatsoever.

I'm inclined to say no 'cos that would be circular .. getting an attack triggered by action that was only possible due to an OA that was also triggered by the same action.
But ... I'm not sure it's not legal.

It wouldn't be, the way you did it. Fortunately, you don't -have to- do it that way. Combat Challenge permitted the immediate interrupt already.