Combining Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority

[Nifft]

He means that this would remove the fighters ability to add wisdom modifier to normal OAs and stop movement with normal OAs. I don't know if this is the intention of your power.
To be clear; are you replacing the fighter combat challenge with this power, or are you replacing combat challenge AND combat superiority?

Yes, that's exactly right.

Since the title of the thread is "Combining Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority", I assumed he would be replacing both Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority with his proposed power... but on re-reading, it's not clear.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Naszir]

He means that this would remove the fighters ability to add wisdom modifier to normal OAs and stop movement with normal OAs. I don't know if this is the intention of your power.
To be clear; are you replacing the fighter combat challenge with this power, or are you replacing combat challenge AND combat superiority?

Ah, ok, I get it. My intention would be to make this power a special opportunity action for the fighter. In order to make it happen the power would have to read opportunity action instead of immediate action.

 

[Nifft]

Notes on the updated version:

Trigger: Any enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes a melee attack that does not include you.
...
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage and any enemy struck by your attack stops moving, if a move provoked the attack.


Is this too powerful? What are the implications of this feature when considering Reach Weapons? Suggestions for revision?

1/ A move cannot trigger this, because the triggers are "shift" and "attack".

2/ Reach weapons are irrelevant, because the trigger is "adjacent".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Naszir]

Notes on the updated version: 1/ A move cannot trigger this, because the triggers are "shift" and "attack".

2/ Reach weapons are irrelevant, because the trigger is "adjacent".

Cheers, -- N

1) Good point. Combat Challenge just includes shifts and attacks. Combat Superiority includes movement but not shifts or attacks.

2) So combat challenge cannot be used with reach weapons ... I had not made the connection.

 

[Nifft]

1) Good point. Combat Challenge just includes shifts and attacks. Combat Superiority includes movement but not shifts or attacks.

2) So combat challenge cannot be used with reach weapons ... I had not made the connection.

Yep.

The fact that Combat Superiority triggers on any OA has a cascade of implications. For one thing, Polearm Gamble becomes awesome, since you can halt a charging enemy one square away from you: in the Donut of Ineffectual Standard Actions.

As mentioned before, Heavy Blade Opportunity expands your OA options, and stacks with Combat Superiority.

So, you'd be making the Fighter more boring, and probably less powerful at Paragon level, even if this updated version were more powerful at Heroic level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[eriktheguy]

Just a general comment about the need for this rule. I've played a few fighters and have been pretty happy with the marking. The Wis bonus to OAs only works well, especially with fighter paths and feats that improve OAs. The marking mechanic makes sense, and helps limit the number of targets the fighter can use combat superiority against. If you want to be able to use a defender mechanic on every adjacent target, the warden suits that play style well.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Posting in response to Keenberg regarding 9 adjacent foes... in my current campaign we had a Dwarven Tank whose build concept was just that. He highlighted this aspect of the Defender class by holding off 14 critters by himself { he blocked off a hallway} until the strikers were done cleaning up the rest of the encounter. Each round he was being attacks by at least 11 of them.
{friggin 30+ AC... }


As to the OP, I think the baseline fighter with come and get it and some other select attack choices allows the defender to play out the way you envision.

The other aspect of marking, that my striker character really enjoys, is that mechanical disadvantage for the critter beyond getting hit. I have been missed relatively often due to that -2 penalty.

 

[Naszir]

Yep.

The fact that Combat Superiority triggers on any OA has a cascade of implications. For one thing, Polearm Gamble becomes awesome, since you can halt a charging enemy one square away from you: in the Donut of Ineffectual Standard Actions.

As mentioned before, Heavy Blade Opportunity expands your OA options, and stacks with Combat Superiority.

So, you'd be making the Fighter more boring, and probably less powerful at Paragon level, even if this updated version were more powerful at Heroic level.

Cheers, -- N

What I propose does not prevent anyone from taking Polearm Gamble. As it stands since I have now made it an opportunity action it takes nothing away from this feat.

Also, Heavy Blade Opportunity could still be used. Though I do see your point. If I were to use what I proprose in my games then the fighter using Heavy Blade Opportunity loses the ability to stick the -2 to attack rolls on enemies.

 

[eriktheguy]

Naszir I just read your latest update in which you have
1: Made combat challenge an OA instead of immediate
2: Granted it Wis to hit
3: Granted movement stopping on a hit
3: Allowed the fighter to use it on any adjacent target, regardless of mark

Just talking from my fighter experience here, this is heavily overpowered. Fighters are already one of the best classes in the game. One of the only things stopping them from shutting down the entire enemy team is that combat challenge attacks are limited to once a round. Switching to an OA removes this limitation and powerfully buffs the fighter class. Adding wisdom mods to all these attacks (which fighters make very often) is another powerful buff. Allowing the fighter to do this without marking is just another minor buff on top of that, making an already powerful ability more versatile. Finally the movement stopping with combat challenge attacks now makes it impossible for enemies to escape from you, since even shifting movement is now cancelled. That's 4 significant buffs with no real drawbacks. Its also worth noting that when an adjacent enemy tries to escape or move you get to attack them, so they become marked for free.

I don't know what problem with the system you're trying to address here. Consider the warde. Their niche is being able to shut down multiple enemies, as they can mark (-2 to hit) every adjacent enemy every turn. Your fighter variant gets to completely shut down (free attack, denied movement, -2 to hit) every adjacent enemy every turn. This defender mechanic is strictly better than the warden's.

With my fighter I was only able to shut down large portions of the enemy team occasionally (using encounter powers like 'get over here') and even then could only use combat challenge on one marked enemy. It was still pretty darned effective.

I think the reason that OA and combat challenge are kept separate is that fighters can make as many OAs in a turn as they want, but punishing an enemy for shifting or ignoring a mark is very powerful, so limited to once a turn. There is a lot of strategy to the way a fighter and a monster decide what to do with a turn. The fighter needs to decide which enemy (or enemies) to mark and the monsters need to decide whether to attack the fighter or ignore his marks. I think the balance on the current system is fine.

 

[Keenberg]

Posting in response to Keenberg regarding 9 adjacent foes... in my current campaign we had a Dwarven Tank whose build concept was just that. He highlighted this aspect of the Defender class by holding off 14 critters by himself { he blocked off a hallway} until the strikers were done cleaning up the rest of the encounter. Each round he was being attacks by at least 11 of them.
{friggin 30+ AC... }

As to the OP, I think the baseline fighter with come and get it and some other select attack choices allows the defender to play out the way you envision.

The other aspect of marking, that my striker character really enjoys, is that mechanical disadvantage for the critter beyond getting hit. I have been missed relatively often due to that -2 penalty.

I'm right with you and your striker, I think the marking mechanic is fun and important. I didn't realise they had that level of durability though. The highest level character I've played is 4th, and he's a Warlord. The only defender class I've interacted with is a 2nd level fighter in the campaignI DM, and I was seriously underestimating his survivability. But now that I know this, I'll be chucking larger numbers of monsters at him more readily!