Come and Get It and Warrior's Urge: Please help me implement a change to both of these powers

[Greg K]

4e players and DMs, I can use your help. Fourth edition has a lot that I like through Heroic Tier. However, I never ran it, partially because paragon tier and Epic would not get used and, partially, because of a few issues. However, I am thinking of giving it a try for Heroic tier since one of my players owns the core books.
One of my Heroic tier issues involves Come and Get It and Warrrior's Urging even after the revision. I am one of those people that has a disconnect with these powers. I always wanted the pull as Cha or Int vs Will to represent trickery or cunning to lure the targets followed by a secondary Str vs AC burst to attack any adjacent foes. I could use help formatting my intent by those more knowledgeable. I would also appreciate advice as to potential pitfalls of how I am approaching it and if the new approach might require a level change

Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst (as described in original power)
Target: Each enemy you can see in the burst
Attack Cha or Int vs. Will
Effect: You pull the target up the number of squares as described in the original power. If any enemy are adjacent to you after the pull, make a secondary attack.
Secondary Attack (Martial, Weapon)
Attack: Str vs AC
Close Burst: 1
Secondary Target: Each enemy in burst
Hit: damage as described in the original power

edit: oops! Thought i posted this to house rules. Mods if it needs to go there, please move it.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The big problem I have with Come and Get It is that it's a martial charm power. At the very least, it shouldn't pull as an effect. Maybe it should be Intimidate vs Will, but that's probably overcomplicating things. I do like how the first attack is not a weapon attack.

I do like the secondary attack, and I wouldn't mind if the first attack was an attack that marked even on a miss.

 

[Greg K]

The big problem I have with Come and Get It is that it's a martial charm power. At the very least, it shouldn't pull as an effect. Maybe it should be Intimidate vs Will, but that's probably overcomplicating things.

Thanks for the reply. It still bothers me a little bit, but breaking it down into two stages results in it bothering me not nearly as much. I can now see it as goading, feigning weakness, or something similar that draws the person in. What about Cha, Int or Bluff vs. Insight or Will for the first attack? insight would allow someone to see through the tactics to resist while Will would allow one to resist temptation or emotion to advance.

I do like how the first attack is not a weapon attack.

I do like the secondary attack, and I wouldn't mind if the first attack was an attack that marked even on a miss.

Thanks. Mark on a miss sounds cool.

 

[CCamfield]

Y'know, I understand how some folks can have a problem with the power. The problem I have with your revision, Greg, is just that the way you have it is going to be a LOT of rolling.

 

[Greg K]

Y'know, I understand how some folks can have a problem with the power. The problem I have with your revision, Greg, is just that the way you have it is going to be a LOT of rolling.

Or just make one roll. Use the roll for the attempt to see if the pull works. Then, apply the same roll to the attack vs defenses to hit to see if damage is done.

 

[pemerton]

double post deleted.

 

[pemerton]

I would also appreciate advice as to potential pitfalls of how I am approaching it

The main pitfall I can see is that the power is rather weak. You have to hit twice, and one of those hits involves attacking with a poor stat. A fighter's INT or CHA bonus is likely to be rather low (fighters need STR, obviously, and then will tend to favour WIS, CON or DEX depending on weapon choice and how good they want their OAs to be).

If you make it such that only one d20 roll is made (as per your post number 5) then the second check to hit becomes redundant, as except in some very corner cases the character will not hit with INT or CHA vs Will but then miss with STR vs AC. So what you have is effectively a rewrite of the errata-ed version using INT or CHA in place of STR, which is a strictly weaker version of the power.

It's also not clear from your formatting whether or not you intend the fighter's enhancement bonus from weapon to apply to the attack vs Will. If not, that makes the power even weaker - poor stat and no enhancement bonus is somewhere around -5 to hit at 7th level (CaGI) and around -12 to hit at 23rd level (Warrior's Urging).

The big problem I have with Come and Get It is that it's a martial charm power.

It doesn't have the charm keyword.

CaGI pulls in creatures with up to 2 sq between the attacking fighter and the target. Assuming a non-reach weapon, that's a gap between the fighter's sword tip and the opponent's body of around 5'. I think the power is most naturally conceived of the fighter using his/her deftness with his/her weapon to wrongfoot opponents. That is, don't pay too much attention to the power's name and treat it as a display of weapon skill. (The pre-errata version is better for this.)

To adapt this to [MENTION=5038]Greg K[/MENTION]'s purposes, I think you'd be better off leaving the power closer to its original version, and stipulating something to reflect the fact that the fighter is, in effect, moving through all the squares between him/her and the enemies that are pulled in - so the fighter will trigger any traps in those squares, for instance.

Another modification that would fit with this general conceptualisation is to allow any enemy to negate the forced movement by falling prone in its square and becoming marked by the fighter til the end of its next turn. That way the fighter still gets a good control effect out of the power even with no damage dealt.

 

[CCamfield]

Come to think of it, I think there's precedent for powers with Stat + modifier on attack rolls.

If it bothered me that the power uses Str vs Will, I'd make it Int or Cha + 3 vs Will. But I wouldn't have a roll vs AC at all - I'd otherwise stick with the original power where the monsters which get pulled in do get hit.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It doesn't have the charm keyword.

It should. It's mind control. You're forcing opponents to move, and not through physical action such as wrapping a chain around their legs and yanking them around the battlefield.

To be perfectly honest, I think CaGI might have worked better as a minor action utility power, without any sort of attack. It might be a mass mark at work (a miss) and a mass pull at best (a hit).

There's a couple of somewhat similar powers where the fighter gives the victim a choice: either attack the fighter (and put yourself in a nasty position, if you're a squishy) or the fighter gets to charge you and hit you even harder. That's not martial mind control; you can choose to ignore it if you like (although you'll get pounded hard if the fighter hits).

 

[Balesir]

It should. It's mind control. You're forcing opponents to move, and not through physical action such as wrapping a chain around their legs and yanking them around the battlefield.

If you think that any method of causing opponents to move around without using brute force to do it is "mind control" I have a recommendation: never get involved in any sort of combat, battle, physical sport or even game of "tag" without a minder present.

Causing or anticipating an opponent's movement is basic to most sports and to all serious combat styles. Call it a "charm", if you like, but that makes "charms" a commonplace in the real world. I watched several Formula 1 racing drivers use them last weekend, for example. Soccer and Rugby Football players use such "powers" several times in a game. A good Wide Receiver in (American) Football has to be a master of the technique. The idea that it is somehow limited to "magic users" would doubtless seem somewhat funny to many a sportsperson.

Re. the original post: I echo [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] that requiring two rolls or one with an off-stat makes it very weak. You might use CHA vs. Will but as a Weapon attack (thus getting the proficiency bonus and Enhancement - both of which seem fair as weapon training ought certainly to help, and a magic weapon may also aid in some way) - one roll to both pull and damage.