D&D 5E Comment on the negative article by John Dodd

[TrippyHippy]

It's a weak criticism because it only focuses on one of the few elements the D&D Starter Set where has an edge on the Pathfinder Beginner Box: price.

No it’s not. The reviewer is focusing on just one product in two different lines, when they both have different approaches or purposes within the line itself.

The Pathfinder Beginner box set was released several years after the Pathfinder Corebook was released, and was largely in response to criticism of that 500+ page product not being beginner friendly. The D&D Starter set, by contrast, is more or less a teaser for the core game yet to be released. The step up from this set, to the Basic Rules and then the Players’ Handbook and so on is more progressive. The leap from the Beginner’s set to the Pathfinder core rules is a greater leap of faith.

The costing between the two is significant. Not only are the Basic Rules free online, but you could also see the difference of cost contributing somewhat towards the purchase of the Player’s Handbook. Factor that in, and the value of having a Pathfinder Beginner set is diminished by comparison.

 

[The Black Ranger]

It's just not a good review. I could respect a review where it's just the Starter Set and it was played and the people that played didn't like it.

So basically you want a skewed review where it paints the starter set in a good light?

D&D and Paizo are competitors fighting for the same group of people. Both have a starter set that gives you an introduction into their role playing game. Same goes for comparing an Xbox One to a PS4, or the iPhone 6 to the Samsung Galaxy Note 4.

These are typical responses to when someone, with some experience in the industry, says that the product they like better isn't as good as it's rival. I own both and I can tell you with all honesty that the Pathfinder starter set is better. It's better quality for a higher price which is something I like better. I would gladly pay more money for better quality and service any day over just going with a cheaper price.

 

[Manbearcat]

It's transient. Immemorable. Forgettable.

The entirety of your post is weighed down by value judgements. I'm not sure there is much truth to any of them (or I may agree - its irrelevant). What I do know is that, assuming the product isn't trash (and especially if its a big name brand) , the prospects for product proliferation are increased when something is priced in the $12 - 20. $30 - 50 is a price range beyond the impulse purchasing of parents, last minute gift buyers, and obnoxious kids. That was my entire point. For someone to review a product and act like that is an irrelevant detail is risible.

 

[trancejeremy]

Let me just point out while a price might be cheap to you, the economy still isn't great. Price matters to a lot of people.

Close to 50 million people are still on food stamps, because they otherwise couldn't afford to eat (and food stamps are maybe $6-7 a day)

 

[TrippyHippy]

So basically you want a skewed review where it paints the starter set in a good light?

D&D and Paizo are competitors fighting for the same group of people. Both have a starter set that gives you an introduction into their role playing game. Same goes for comparing an Xbox One to a PS4, or the iPhone 6 to the Samsung Galaxy Note 4.

These are typical responses to when someone, with some experience in the industry, says that the product they like better isn't as good as it's rival. I own both and I can tell you with all honesty that the Pathfinder starter set is better. It's better quality for a higher price which is something I like better. I would gladly pay more money for better quality and service any day over just going with a cheaper price.

Ok. Well, the counterpoint is that I have read through both, and I couldn’t bring myself to want to buy the Pathfinder game. The art is horrible, the gameplay is boring and the whole concept is a rip-off. I would gladly pay for D&D Starter because it’s better.

Happy now?

 

[Agamon]

So basically you want a skewed review where it paints the starter set in a good light?

D&D and Paizo are competitors fighting for the same group of people. Both have a starter set that gives you an introduction into their role playing game. Same goes for comparing an Xbox One to a PS4, or the iPhone 6 to the Samsung Galaxy Note 4.

These are typical responses to when someone, with some experience in the industry, says that the product they like better isn't as good as it's rival. I own both and I can tell you with all honesty that the Pathfinder starter set is better. It's better quality for a higher price which is something I like better. I would gladly pay more money for better quality and service any day over just going with a cheaper price.

Sorry, a taste test where you taste one and look at the other isn't really a taste test.

I love how people think they can figure a game out without playing it. Especially players that have never roleplayed before, that's quite the feat.

I have no problem with the PFBB. I just don't think it was a good review. They saw what was in this box and played that one, and they liked that one better. No kidding, really?

But hey, I think I've stated this in pretty every one of my posts in this thread, so feel free to ignore it here, too.

 

[Mistwell]

It's a weak criticism because it only focuses on one of the few elements the D&D Starter Set where has an edge on the Pathfinder Beginner Box: price.

Yes, because I said it's one of the most important factors. And I asked you a question that explains why it is so important, but you didn't answer. I will ask again - is there a price at which you would buy the D&D set but not the PF set? If the PF set were $100 and the D&D set were $20, would that do it? What's the line you draw (if it's not cheap vs pricey, which we already established)?

When you find that line, you will understand my point. For me, I've already hit that line. The PF set priced me out of the market, so it doesn't matter what is in it. I don't in general need a starter set - the only way I am an audience for one is if I consider it a good set AND it's priced right. The D&D set is a good set (regardless of how it compares to another set out there - it's good on its own) and it's at the right price. The analysis for me on the PF stops at the price. I don't even get to whether it is good or not at that point.

I actually ended up buying TWO D&D starter sets. One to give away right away to a new player, and another to run the adventure before I give it away to a new player. I can do that at $12 each. I can never do that for the PF set - I cannot even buy one of them for the price of these two sets I bought from Amazon. Price is that important a factor.

BTW I hate those images you posted of the PF starter set. What you like, with vibrant colors, I despise. It looks childish, it looks garish, it looks cartoonish, it looks altogether soul-less to me. I wish you hadn't ever shown me those pictures because now I know for sure that set is never for me. It would be fine for a superhero game, but for D&D? Wow, no way. From my subjective view, that is just awful. It looks like some of the worst aspects of 4e - stuff they started to finally move away from in their later books when they realized how it was coming across to many. Totally removes the sense of magic and mystery that is such a good part of D&D. Ugh, and that Barbarian Manga-looking character? What do you see in that, it's ridiculous looking!

 

[GrumpyGamer]

So basically you want a skewed review where it paints the starter set in a good light?

D&D and Paizo are competitors fighting for the same group of people. Both have a starter set that gives you an introduction into their role playing game. Same goes for comparing an Xbox One to a PS4, or the iPhone 6 to the Samsung Galaxy Note 4.

These are typical responses to when someone, with some experience in the industry, says that the product they like better isn't as good as it's rival. I own both and I can tell you with all honesty that the Pathfinder starter set is better. It's better quality for a higher price which is something I like better. I would gladly pay more money for better quality and service any day over just going with a cheaper price.

When you say it is better quality are you talking about the module or the rules books and accessories?

As I stated earlier in this thread I have never bothered with the PF Beginner Box, as I think some of the APs offer a better first experience for new players. In addition I am put off by the different rule set. The D&D Starter set is more of an intro module designed to ease players into the game.

For me the problem with the review is that it is an Apples vs Oranges comparison.

 

[Jester David]

Yes, because I said it's one of the most important factors. And I asked you a question that explains why it is so important, but you didn't answer. I will ask again - is there a price at which you would buy the D&D set but not the PF set? If the PF set were $100 and the D&D set were $20, would that do it? What's the line you draw (if it's not cheap vs pricey, which we already established)?

When you find that line, you will understand my point. For me, I've already hit that line. The PF set priced me out of the market, so it doesn't matter what is in it. I don't in general need a starter set - the only way I am an audience for one is if I consider it a good set AND it's priced right. The D&D set is a good set (regardless of how it compares to another set out there - it's good on its own) and it's at the right price. The analysis for me on the PF stops at the price. I don't even get to whether it is good or not at that point.

I actually ended up buying TWO D&D starter sets. One to give away right away to a new player, and another to run the adventure before I give it away to a new player. I can do that at $12 each. I can never do that for the PF set - I cannot even buy one of them for the price of these two sets I bought from Amazon. Price is that important a factor.

At $50 the Beginner Box was too rich for my blood, as it's too much to spend for a product I likely will never use.
If I were giving it as a gift to someone at the right age range, it would be high up on my list. I spend $50 on a video game. That seems to be about the right price for a teen's gift.

At $20, the a Starter Set is something I will buy knowing I *might* use it! but might not. It,s money I'm willing to throw away.
I'm not certain I'll find time to use my $50 5e PHB either, with my Pathfinder heavy group. But, at $50, I will find time. I'll prioritize a one shot to get us out of my purchase. I won't for a $20 box. With my current group I'm not going to go out of my way to play the adventure.

The Beginner Box versus the Starter a Set are very different price strategies. One is a rifle, that you use for precise targeted shots, and the other is a shotgun fired wildly in the hopes of hitting something.
The Starter Set is cheap and disposable, so people will buy them just to give them away.

Oh, and the Beginner Box is priced at $24 on Amazon. Two $12 Starter Sets is the exactly the same price as the one Beginner Box.

 

[Jester David]

No it’s not. The reviewer is focusing on just one product in two different lines, when they both have different approaches or purposes within the line itself.

The Pathfinder Beginner box set was released several years after the Pathfinder Corebook was released, and was largely in response to criticism of that 500+ page product not being beginner friendly. The D&D Starter set, by contrast, is more or less a teaser for the core game yet to be released. The step up from this set, to the Basic Rules and then the Players’ Handbook and so on is more progressive. The leap from the Beginner’s set to the Pathfinder core rules is a greater leap of faith.

The costing between the two is significant. Not only are the Basic Rules free online, but you could also see the difference of cost contributing somewhat towards the purchase of the Player’s Handbook. Factor that in, and the value of having a Pathfinder Beginner set is diminished by comparison.

They may have slightly different places in their individual product lines but the intent of the two products is the same: be an introductory gaming product that can serve as a giftable gateway to the roleplaying game.