Raven Crowking
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The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Comments Please - Shaman Build
- Thread starter Raven Crowking
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Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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I thought it was me, I haven't been able to get on either.
Spirit Sight: Persistent vision into the spirit realm/astral plane/umbra? Your version of it, yeah? Or is it persistent ability to perceive spirits on this plane? I know you like to change rulings slightly, just trying to figure out where you let the needle fall on this one exactly, but goes without saying, the power is necessary.
Lucid Dreaming: "opposed Wisdom check to wrest control of that being." Did you mean of that being, or from that being? I'm assuming you meant 'from.'
- Hallucinatory Defense: What about instaglicks which rely on this, such as Phantasmal Killer? Would seem to me that if anyone is in touch with their souls and aware of what can challenge them, it's a Shaman. They aren't the panic-to-death types, would this save apply to that spell as well?
Spirit Familiar If you haven't noticed my icon, I'm well familiar with this concept. You've captured the flavor of this (or a possible version of it) very well, blending both Native tradition and Oriental tradition. So hats off for that one; I have no clue how your point system works, though. Can you aim me towards the book or elaborate? I'm assuming it's balanced, I just don't grasp where the points come from, how they're pooled or counted.
Spirit's Favor: Bonus. Ver' nice.
DreamScape: I haven't read all of Hyperconcious, but I'm assuming (possibly erroneously) that this is based on a great deal of their 'mindscape' concept, but with more flavor and better balance. It also has a distinct White Wolf Umbra feel to it, which I like, and fits very well with the concept. This looks good. Obviously you'll populate this sub-plane with all the necessary accoutrements to make sure the power isn't simply gating back & forth with no tangible result. Solid.
Subvert Bound Spirits: This is downright scary, and I edge that it's over powered.
Gotta bounce, will continue in the morning.
Spirit Sight: Persistent vision into the spirit realm/astral plane/umbra? Your version of it, yeah? Or is it persistent ability to perceive spirits on this plane? I know you like to change rulings slightly, just trying to figure out where you let the needle fall on this one exactly, but goes without saying, the power is necessary.
Lucid Dreaming: "opposed Wisdom check to wrest control of that being." Did you mean of that being, or from that being? I'm assuming you meant 'from.'
- Hallucinatory Defense: What about instaglicks which rely on this, such as Phantasmal Killer? Would seem to me that if anyone is in touch with their souls and aware of what can challenge them, it's a Shaman. They aren't the panic-to-death types, would this save apply to that spell as well?
Spirit Familiar If you haven't noticed my icon, I'm well familiar with this concept. You've captured the flavor of this (or a possible version of it) very well, blending both Native tradition and Oriental tradition. So hats off for that one; I have no clue how your point system works, though. Can you aim me towards the book or elaborate? I'm assuming it's balanced, I just don't grasp where the points come from, how they're pooled or counted.
Spirit's Favor: Bonus. Ver' nice.
DreamScape: I haven't read all of Hyperconcious, but I'm assuming (possibly erroneously) that this is based on a great deal of their 'mindscape' concept, but with more flavor and better balance. It also has a distinct White Wolf Umbra feel to it, which I like, and fits very well with the concept. This looks good. Obviously you'll populate this sub-plane with all the necessary accoutrements to make sure the power isn't simply gating back & forth with no tangible result. Solid.
Subvert Bound Spirits: This is downright scary, and I edge that it's over powered.
Gotta bounce, will continue in the morning.
Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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Good morning, RC. As promised, I have coffee up in me, though my eyes are still ruddy sore from last night's game (Ravenloft). Ah, the high wheelin', big pimp life of a gamer. Sittin' up til' 1 am discussion rules and whether or not my chili was any good (evidently it was, because it was freakin' gone before we'd even started playing.) Ah, chili. We hardly knew ye.
To pick up where I left off:
- Subvert Bound Spirit. I would lean more towards an exorcism and abilities to deal with outsiders, but understanding the traditions as I do, I can't say that this is right out as much as it isn't the flavor I would go for. Your mechanics are sound, and I agree that everyone should have everything at their disposal (no specific advantage). I disagree in a ... a flavor sense, if you will, with the idea of subverting a steadfastly loyal companion.
OTOH, what you're effectively casting is "Charm X" where X retains a certain amount of loyalty and can't (as a Charm spell) be commanded to do anything truly crazy. As we both know, Charm is pretty easy to get your mitts on, but your check is more advanced than a normal DC 10 + 1 + Stat. And, you did limit it by keeping the duration short (also big ups on that, assuming the caster lives long enough to care).
You've got 25 levels here; would you consider bringing it down to X/day? Say... 6/12/18/24? This is (or IMO, should be) a major effort, so to reign it a little bit, that would be my first suggestion until I think of something more concrete.
Speak With Spirits: What was your guage for determining the DCs? I can sit here and posit arguments all day - and never tire - as to what should be set where and why, whether it would make more sense to go by a "power" behind the spirit based on age and responsibility (which is more charting, whee!) or that manufactured items are more difficult to communicate with than living ones. Or vice versa. I don't think we'd accomplish much on that string, so "meh." So - why this particular chart?
The power, otherwise, is well balanced and makes sense. This sort of constant augury is important. Out of curiosity, would the Shaman be able to ask questions of his own equipment to see if they picked up on something he missed? Do you have a mechanic for building up familiarity with those spirits outside of the normal Spiritual Companion?
Unbind Spirits: I thought this might come up.
As a DM, I would really hesitate to put this kind of power into a PCs hands. I suppose it's because (similarly to the earlier version) I have the idea in my head that some things are inviolate; that's me, as a DM, more than a problem I see with the mechanic. There are spells which are PC accessible which cost people entire levels, or kill them outright, so merely costing them XP is (comparatively) minor, except it can't be healed or recovered except over time, and that haunts me.
I almost think there should be more set up for it, and the power should be harder to execute. Otherwise by level 10 I'd be unbinding everything left and right. AHA. IMO: You may want to consider adding flavor text that the power is used largely in defense of the spirit. Remebering that the shaman isn't terribly concerned with the state of man, but is concerned with the state of man in cooperation with spirits. If the spirit is unhappy, that would be a worthy reason to unbind it.
Also, if a spirit (say, a Paladin's Mount, which should be a nearly unbreakable bond) has no interest in being Unbound, there should definately be some sort of additional attempt on the spirit's part, in association with its master (and other broadcasting companies) to not get severed. The mechanic you have treats the spirit as an object, which can be attached or removed like a LEGO. I submit it may need some tweaking to reflect the opinion of the spirit itself.
Current opinion: Great concept, but needs more development to reflect more variables and be adequately explained for the player.
Side note: The Divine grant Clerics their powers. Shamans aren't "gifted," they're chosen, or go through a ritual which both ask the same question: will these spirits accept me as an ambassador in the Middle Reams? If they step outside of the bounds of their authority often enough, the spirit world can rebel against them. Did you include a mechanic for that?
True Dreamwalking: Sleepy TP. Nice.
Spirit Form: The logical conclusion of it all. Also, very nice.
So those are my thoughts so far. As promised, I had coffee first.
Thoughts on my thoughts?
To pick up where I left off:
- Subvert Bound Spirit. I would lean more towards an exorcism and abilities to deal with outsiders, but understanding the traditions as I do, I can't say that this is right out as much as it isn't the flavor I would go for. Your mechanics are sound, and I agree that everyone should have everything at their disposal (no specific advantage). I disagree in a ... a flavor sense, if you will, with the idea of subverting a steadfastly loyal companion.
OTOH, what you're effectively casting is "Charm X" where X retains a certain amount of loyalty and can't (as a Charm spell) be commanded to do anything truly crazy. As we both know, Charm is pretty easy to get your mitts on, but your check is more advanced than a normal DC 10 + 1 + Stat. And, you did limit it by keeping the duration short (also big ups on that, assuming the caster lives long enough to care).
You've got 25 levels here; would you consider bringing it down to X/day? Say... 6/12/18/24? This is (or IMO, should be) a major effort, so to reign it a little bit, that would be my first suggestion until I think of something more concrete.
Speak With Spirits: What was your guage for determining the DCs? I can sit here and posit arguments all day - and never tire - as to what should be set where and why, whether it would make more sense to go by a "power" behind the spirit based on age and responsibility (which is more charting, whee!) or that manufactured items are more difficult to communicate with than living ones. Or vice versa. I don't think we'd accomplish much on that string, so "meh." So - why this particular chart?
The power, otherwise, is well balanced and makes sense. This sort of constant augury is important. Out of curiosity, would the Shaman be able to ask questions of his own equipment to see if they picked up on something he missed? Do you have a mechanic for building up familiarity with those spirits outside of the normal Spiritual Companion?
Unbind Spirits: I thought this might come up.
As a DM, I would really hesitate to put this kind of power into a PCs hands. I suppose it's because (similarly to the earlier version) I have the idea in my head that some things are inviolate; that's me, as a DM, more than a problem I see with the mechanic. There are spells which are PC accessible which cost people entire levels, or kill them outright, so merely costing them XP is (comparatively) minor, except it can't be healed or recovered except over time, and that haunts me.
I almost think there should be more set up for it, and the power should be harder to execute. Otherwise by level 10 I'd be unbinding everything left and right. AHA. IMO: You may want to consider adding flavor text that the power is used largely in defense of the spirit. Remebering that the shaman isn't terribly concerned with the state of man, but is concerned with the state of man in cooperation with spirits. If the spirit is unhappy, that would be a worthy reason to unbind it.
Also, if a spirit (say, a Paladin's Mount, which should be a nearly unbreakable bond) has no interest in being Unbound, there should definately be some sort of additional attempt on the spirit's part, in association with its master (and other broadcasting companies) to not get severed. The mechanic you have treats the spirit as an object, which can be attached or removed like a LEGO. I submit it may need some tweaking to reflect the opinion of the spirit itself.
Current opinion: Great concept, but needs more development to reflect more variables and be adequately explained for the player.
Side note: The Divine grant Clerics their powers. Shamans aren't "gifted," they're chosen, or go through a ritual which both ask the same question: will these spirits accept me as an ambassador in the Middle Reams? If they step outside of the bounds of their authority often enough, the spirit world can rebel against them. Did you include a mechanic for that?
True Dreamwalking: Sleepy TP. Nice.
Spirit Form: The logical conclusion of it all. Also, very nice.
So those are my thoughts so far. As promised, I had coffee first.
Thoughts on my thoughts?Raven Crowking
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Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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OH, pff. Dreamwalking. There are all sorts of ways to do that (illusions, mass charms, etc.) that aren't nearly as elaborate. ;-) That wouldn't be a major concern for me in the slightest. Granted, yes, that combo exists, but clever players have a powerful habit of doing all sorts of things we've never considered.
In re: time & type of bond. A Paladin who's been with the same mount for 10 years shouldn't have that relationship threatened by a simple die test; that's an extreme case, granted, but a great deal of what I'm getting at with my core point. I mean it just shouldn't happen, and were I the one RPing the Paladin I'd probably pop.
In re: losing familiars, I recognized the mechanic straight out from the PHB, and I also recognized that it was a 'less' damaging than slaying the familiar outright, but the end result is the same (unless, point yielded apriori, they've done crazy extra boosts to their familiar). I suppose I come from an Order of The Stick attitude on it: "Oh, right. Yeah, I have a familiar!"
On the 6/12/18/24, that was "times per day by level," which I didn't clarify. Moo, moo moo. So, at 6th, once per day, then 2x at 12, 3x at 18, 4x at 24. Sorry 'bout that.
And dag, look at the time. Gotta bounce.
In re: time & type of bond. A Paladin who's been with the same mount for 10 years shouldn't have that relationship threatened by a simple die test; that's an extreme case, granted, but a great deal of what I'm getting at with my core point. I mean it just shouldn't happen, and were I the one RPing the Paladin I'd probably pop.
In re: losing familiars, I recognized the mechanic straight out from the PHB, and I also recognized that it was a 'less' damaging than slaying the familiar outright, but the end result is the same (unless, point yielded apriori, they've done crazy extra boosts to their familiar). I suppose I come from an Order of The Stick attitude on it: "Oh, right. Yeah, I have a familiar!"
On the 6/12/18/24, that was "times per day by level," which I didn't clarify. Moo, moo moo. So, at 6th, once per day, then 2x at 12, 3x at 18, 4x at 24. Sorry 'bout that.
And dag, look at the time. Gotta bounce.
Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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On Paladins: That's (again) much of where I'm going; that just shouldn't happen. It's really not a mount, as much as a Divine Companion in the shape of a horse (so we're on the same page precisely, despite the different campaign settings). Or a dog. Whatever, you get what I'm saying.
With that, and using the owners will save... yielded, if you want them to keep the power, I'll submit that a minmum +5 would be appropriate. But I would also DMO a basic chart that determines ease. Eh, for example:
Owner is beloved: +4
Owner is well liked: +2
Neutral towards owner: +/-0
Owner is disliked: -2
Owner is loathed: -4
Life-long companion (5+yr/Paladin's Mount): +4
Long-time companion (2-5 yrs): +2
Fairly new companion (less than 2 yr.): +/- 0
So that bonus won't apply to most PCs, but an NPC who's been with their familiar for the last 15 years has a Life-Long companion. It may like him, it may not. They may have a complex relationship and it boils down to neutral, but it reflects, at least in part, that the bond between a companion & an owner matters.
You don't sound dismissive, you sound like a person who's worked his tail off and is defending the work he did. No dismiss taken, I'm the extra pair of eyes here. If one of my ideas is lame, by all means. "Thia... that's just lame." Works every time. No apology necessary, I'm glad to be of help.
With that, and using the owners will save... yielded, if you want them to keep the power, I'll submit that a minmum +5 would be appropriate. But I would also DMO a basic chart that determines ease. Eh, for example:
Owner is beloved: +4
Owner is well liked: +2
Neutral towards owner: +/-0
Owner is disliked: -2
Owner is loathed: -4
Life-long companion (5+yr/Paladin's Mount): +4
Long-time companion (2-5 yrs): +2
Fairly new companion (less than 2 yr.): +/- 0
So that bonus won't apply to most PCs, but an NPC who's been with their familiar for the last 15 years has a Life-Long companion. It may like him, it may not. They may have a complex relationship and it boils down to neutral, but it reflects, at least in part, that the bond between a companion & an owner matters.
You don't sound dismissive, you sound like a person who's worked his tail off and is defending the work he did.
No dismiss taken, I'm the extra pair of eyes here. If one of my ideas is lame, by all means. "Thia... that's just lame." Works every time. No apology necessary, I'm glad to be of help.
